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Other/Mixed Vestibular system??

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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watchnerd

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I’m reading Original Strength Reloaded and there is a persistent mention about training the vestibular system.

It‘s the first time I’ve seen such an emphasis in a training system, although plenty emphasize qualities that utilize the vestibular system, such as balance or proprioception.

I‘ve done my head nods and they certainly helped neck mobility, tension relief, and posture, but I didn’t feel any special vestibular magic.

The moves seem fine, but the explanation as to why it’s good seems pretty goofy, and not something I’ve read elsewhere.

Thoughts?

Just do the exercises and ignore the theory?
 
The vestibular system is one of several systems that control our balance and like all other senses, tend to degrade as we age. It is mainly driven by the position and/or movement of you head head in relation to gravity. That’s why OS emphasizes head nods/turns and rolling.

By helping to control our proprioception or spatial awareness, the vestibular system helps prepare the body for movement in a controlled and coordinated manner by supplying information to the parts of your brain responsible for movement.

Not only affecting our balance, it is one of the places that relay information to our eyes to function a certain way; it is called the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex. One test for VOR is focusing on an object in front of you, and turn your head side to side, maintaining your focus. Start slow and progress fast. The faster you go, the harder time you have maintaining your gaze and focus.

In short, OS emphasizes the vestibular system because it helps all parts of our body to communicate efficiently with one another to allow for better movement.
 
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The vestibular system is one of several systems that control our balance and like all other senses, tend to degrade as we age. It is mainly driven by the position and/or movement of you head head in relation to gravity. That’s why OS emphasizes head nods/turns and rolling.

By helping to control our proprioception or spatial awareness, the vestibular system helps prepare the body for movement in a controlled and coordinated manner by supplying information to the parts of your brain responsible for movement.

Not only affecting our balance, it is one of the places that relay information to our eyes to function a certain way; it is called the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex. One test for VOR is focusing on an object in front of you, and turn your head side to side, maintaining your focus. Start slow and progress fast. The faster you go, the harder time you have maintaining your gaze and focus.

In short, OS emphasizes the vestibular system because it helps all parts of our body to communicate efficiently with one another to allow for better movement.
Would it be fair to say that in a young ’healthy’ person that performing OS (and similar) movements might not show any marked immediate improvements? But that the benefits need to be looked at in the long view? While in an older or perhaps more compromised position might see some more immediate changes? Or am I off the mark here?
 
Would it be fair to say that in a young ’healthy’ person that performing OS (and similar) movements might not show any marked immediate improvements? But that the benefits need to be looked at in the long view? While in an older or perhaps more compromised position might see some more immediate changes? Or am I off the mark here?
Seems reasonable to me. Falling is a huge issue in the elderly population. Reflexive strength/stability and balance are thus very important.

I think this stuff is discussed in the OS pro workshops, also from a neurological perspective.
 
Would it be fair to say that in a young ’healthy’ person that performing OS (and similar) movements might not show any marked immediate improvements? But that the benefits need to be looked at in the long view? While in an older or perhaps more compromised position might see some more immediate changes? Or am I off the mark here?

I don’t think I qualify as young, turning 51 this year.

But I’ve already been doing yoga, which has all sorts of head inversions and gaze work, and there is a little in my Pilates practice, too. TBH, except for the crawling, a lot of OS overlaps with yoga and Pilates, especially the pelvic floor work and diaphragm breathing.

And of course TGUs and windmills, too, for vestibular work.

(not so much in weightlifting)

Maybe I was already doing a lot?

So didn’t notice anything special?
 
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Would it be fair to say that in a young ’healthy’ person that performing OS (and similar) movements might not show any marked immediate improvements? But that the benefits need to be looked at in the long view? While in an older or perhaps more compromised position might see some more immediate changes? Or am I off the mark here?

I don’t think I qualify as young, turning 51 this year.

But I’ve already been doing yoga, which has all sorts of head inversions and gaze work, and there is a little in my Pilates practice, too. TBH, except for the crawling, a lot of OS overlaps with yoga and Pilates, especially the pelvic floor work and diaphragm breathing.

And of course TGUs and windmills, too, for vestibular work.

(not so much in weighting)

Maybe I was already doing a lot?

So didn’t notice anything special?
Absolutely. An older individual already has a nervous system that is slowing down, and they move less with limited activity. Young or even older active individuals would see less improvement, but that shouldn’t imply that it shouldn’t be done.

the entire vestibular system is driven by tiny crystals in your inner ear that can become brittle and break loose. This can lead to positional vertigo which is debilitating. I believe a healthy lifestyle can improve the health of these crystals
 
Would it be fair to say that in a young ’healthy’ person that performing OS (and similar) movements might not show any marked immediate improvements? But that the benefits need to be looked at in the long view? While in an older or perhaps more compromised position might see some more immediate changes? Or am I off the mark here?
That was kind of my thought. That the more you "need" it, the more benefit you're likely to notice.
 
Hello,

I think that if you have always been 'active' (even by the definition of someone who is active in a blue zone), it naturally preserves proprioception abilities, without a dedicated practice.

If you work on it, even if you do not especially feel you need it, this is possible you feel it pointless. Obviously, this may also depends on the activities you practice. I am 31yo. However, since I have been working more on my balance (oaol push ups, pistols, oaol ovh press, hspu) I run better. I only feel it on trails, not especially in daily life.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Movement is movement.
It's all the same stuff just different frames of reference, cues and,well, semantics.
If you don't move much and sit a ot at a computer then some head nods and neck mobility give you some needed movement during the day great. Likewise warming up with some neck mobility or something.
And perhaps you need to devote some extra time to certain areas. I spend time and extra mobility on my knees for instance. Not everyone needs to do that.
If you do daily down and up dogs you are doing more for your body than nodding your head.
For vestibular action and proprioceptive awareness, kick off your shoes. And whatever you do will stimulate different neurological responses.
 
I think of OS differently than an "exercise" program. I approach it as play, exploration and experimentation.

Not as therapy. Not through a lens of dysfunction and correction. Not as mobility or flexibility training. Not as warm up for other activities. Not as its own discipline (such as yoga).

I approach it as play -- something to do for its own sake because it is fun and feels good to do. I approach it as exploration of and experimentation with movement. I don't look at the categories and principles (changing levels, moving the head, contralateral movements, limbs crossing the centerline, etc) as restrictions or instructions, but as inspiration to explore. If you look at Tim's videos on the OS YouTube channel, he exudes this vibe of play and exploration. He's constantly coming up with different variations, with only the directive to "give this a try."

I think that Tim sometimes oversells and overemphasizes the theory behind it and the idea of emulating and recapitulating the development of movement skills in children, and the idea that we were "meant" to...whatever. I don't necessarily buy it, and largely ignore it. To me, it's completely beside the point of why I use OS. I generally like to have a scientific understanding of what I do, or at least a theory/hypothesis that I have confidence can withstand a little critical thinking. With OS, I just don't care. When Tim starts talking about the vestibular system, or babies and how we were "meant" to move, my eyes glaze over. But when he comes up with another way to rock, crawl or roll around, I pay attention.

I just look at it in terms of black box cause and effect. It feels good when I do it, and when I do it regularly, I feel and move better. Specifically, my posture is better, my shoulder mechanics are better, and I feel both looser and more tied together overall. And I think a key phrase there is "do it regularly." I don't find OS practice to create dramatic immediate effects. But with enough consistently accumulated reps, "all of a sudden" everything feels better, and whenever I stop doing it for a while "all of a sudden" I don't feel or move as well.

As I've gotten older (now 56) I feel like my movement vocabulary has shrunk. To maintain movement freedom (a term I like better than "mobility" or "flexibility"), I have to make time to explore movement variety. It's easy to get locked into certain patterns through a combination of training and lack of non-exercise play (even playing basketball regularly, there are patterns I naturally fall into that are hard to deviate from).

For most of my life, I had very good movement freedom (mobility/flexibility, whatever you want to call it) -- until I didn't anymore. It sneaks up on you over time. As Ernest Hemingway once wrote in a different context, it happens "Two ways. Gradually and then suddenly."

I actually started doing a lot of Scott Sonnon's mobility stuff many years ago (anyone remember Zdorovye?), but didn't do it consistently because I didn't think I "needed" it. I didn't -- at the time. But looking back, I DID need to be doing it then, so I could still move that way NOW.

Nowadays, I find OS works really well to help regain some of that lost movement freedom in a fun and enjoyable way. It doesn't pathologize your current state (whatever it happens to be). It doesn't require special expert instruction (you can just watch a video and give it a try). You don't need to conform to precise technique standards. You just need to crawl, roll, march, and skip around -- play, not train.

"It might reasonably be maintained that the true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; heaven is a playground." (GK Chesterton)
 
Hello,

It can be a good approach, I do admit it.

Knowing a little about the science behind something (OS or whatever) can still be useful to see if it can work for us at first sight. If so, then we can simply try to see if it works for us. So here, we put the theory into practice. If despite science, proper technique, etc...it does not work, then we can start to consider another routine.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
That's my approach. I am pretty new to OS and just stick to the daily reset. But from reading two of his books I would say that a lot of the stuff written in there isn't all that important to remember. The youtube channel is awesome though and worth a visit.

I have to admit, on a few of the YouTube videos, I questioned the hefty anterior pelvic tilt Tim uses.

Not a big issue with body weight exercises, but I definitely wouldn't want to train that habit for big load bearing BB pulls. At least not for how my levers work.

This one, in particular, got me cringing a little. But that might just be Tim's anthropometry.

 
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I think of OS differently than an "exercise" program. I approach it as play, exploration and experimentation.

Not as therapy. Not through a lens of dysfunction and correction. Not as mobility or flexibility training. Not as warm up for other activities. Not as its own discipline (such as yoga).

I approach it as play -- something to do for its own sake because it is fun and feels good to do. I approach it as exploration of and experimentation with movement. I don't look at the categories and principles (changing levels, moving the head, contralateral movements, limbs crossing the centerline, etc) as restrictions or instructions, but as inspiration to explore. If you look at Tim's videos on the OS YouTube channel, he exudes this vibe of play and exploration. He's constantly coming up with different variations, with only the directive to "give this a try."

I think that Tim sometimes oversells and overemphasizes the theory behind it and the idea of emulating and recapitulating the development of movement skills in children, and the idea that we were "meant" to...whatever. I don't necessarily buy it, and largely ignore it. To me, it's completely beside the point of why I use OS. I generally like to have a scientific understanding of what I do, or at least a theory/hypothesis that I have confidence can withstand a little critical thinking. With OS, I just don't care. When Tim starts talking about the vestibular system, or babies and how we were "meant" to move, my eyes glaze over. But when he comes up with another way to rock, crawl or roll around, I pay attention.

I just look at it in terms of black box cause and effect. It feels good when I do it, and when I do it regularly, I feel and move better. Specifically, my posture is better, my shoulder mechanics are better, and I feel both looser and more tied together overall. And I think a key phrase there is "do it regularly." I don't find OS practice to create dramatic immediate effects. But with enough consistently accumulated reps, "all of a sudden" everything feels better, and whenever I stop doing it for a while "all of a sudden" I don't feel or move as well.

As I've gotten older (now 56) I feel like my movement vocabulary has shrunk. To maintain movement freedom (a term I like better than "mobility" or "flexibility"), I have to make time to explore movement variety. It's easy to get locked into certain patterns through a combination of training and lack of non-exercise play (even playing basketball regularly, there are patterns I naturally fall into that are hard to deviate from).

For most of my life, I had very good movement freedom (mobility/flexibility, whatever you want to call it) -- until I didn't anymore. It sneaks up on you over time. As Ernest Hemingway once wrote in a different context, it happens "Two ways. Gradually and then suddenly."

I actually started doing a lot of Scott Sonnon's mobility stuff many years ago (anyone remember Zdorovye?), but didn't do it consistently because I didn't think I "needed" it. I didn't -- at the time. But looking back, I DID need to be doing it then, so I could still move that way NOW.

Nowadays, I find OS works really well to help regain some of that lost movement freedom in a fun and enjoyable way. It doesn't pathologize your current state (whatever it happens to be). It doesn't require special expert instruction (you can just watch a video and give it a try). You don't need to conform to precise technique standards. You just need to crawl, roll, march, and skip around -- play, not train.

"It might reasonably be maintained that the true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; heaven is a playground." (GK Chesterton)
In a nutshell: We are meant to play :D

I think there is a lot of gold in your post. Tim often struggles how to communicate this weird movement practice/system/philosophy.

For me, it is mostly: It feels food to feel good. I can always do some resets, no matter how tired or sore I am, contrary to other movements. So I always rely on the resets when I feel like movement would do me good. (Or on taking a walk.)
 
In a nutshell: We are meant to play :D

I think there is a lot of gold in your post. Tim often struggles how to communicate this weird movement practice/system/philosophy.

For me, it is mostly: It feels food to feel good. I can always do some resets, no matter how tired or sore I am, contrary to other movements. So I always rely on the resets when I feel like movement would do me good. (Or on taking a walk.)

I think this overview of the different 'movement training' schools was a pretty good explanation, or at least fits how I tend to think of things:

 
I think of OS differently than an "exercise" program. I approach it as play, exploration and experimentation.

Not as therapy. Not through a lens of dysfunction and correction. Not as mobility or flexibility training. Not as warm up for other activities. Not as its own discipline (such as yoga).

I approach it as play -- something to do for its own sake because it is fun and feels good to do. I approach it as exploration of and experimentation with movement. I don't look at the categories and principles (changing levels, moving the head, contralateral movements, limbs crossing the centerline, etc) as restrictions or instructions, but as inspiration to explore. If you look at Tim's videos on the OS YouTube channel, he exudes this vibe of play and exploration. He's constantly coming up with different variations, with only the directive to "give this a try."

I think that Tim sometimes oversells and overemphasizes the theory behind it and the idea of emulating and recapitulating the development of movement skills in children, and the idea that we were "meant" to...whatever. I don't necessarily buy it, and largely ignore it. To me, it's completely beside the point of why I use OS. I generally like to have a scientific understanding of what I do, or at least a theory/hypothesis that I have confidence can withstand a little critical thinking. With OS, I just don't care. When Tim starts talking about the vestibular system, or babies and how we were "meant" to move, my eyes glaze over. But when he comes up with another way to rock, crawl or roll around, I pay attention.

I just look at it in terms of black box cause and effect. It feels good when I do it, and when I do it regularly, I feel and move better. Specifically, my posture is better, my shoulder mechanics are better, and I feel both looser and more tied together overall. And I think a key phrase there is "do it regularly." I don't find OS practice to create dramatic immediate effects. But with enough consistently accumulated reps, "all of a sudden" everything feels better, and whenever I stop doing it for a while "all of a sudden" I don't feel or move as well.

As I've gotten older (now 56) I feel like my movement vocabulary has shrunk. To maintain movement freedom (a term I like better than "mobility" or "flexibility"), I have to make time to explore movement variety. It's easy to get locked into certain patterns through a combination of training and lack of non-exercise play (even playing basketball regularly, there are patterns I naturally fall into that are hard to deviate from).

For most of my life, I had very good movement freedom (mobility/flexibility, whatever you want to call it) -- until I didn't anymore. It sneaks up on you over time. As Ernest Hemingway once wrote in a different context, it happens "Two ways. Gradually and then suddenly."

I actually started doing a lot of Scott Sonnon's mobility stuff many years ago (anyone remember Zdorovye?), but didn't do it consistently because I didn't think I "needed" it. I didn't -- at the time. But looking back, I DID need to be doing it then, so I could still move that way NOW.

Nowadays, I find OS works really well to help regain some of that lost movement freedom in a fun and enjoyable way. It doesn't pathologize your current state (whatever it happens to be). It doesn't require special expert instruction (you can just watch a video and give it a try). You don't need to conform to precise technique standards. You just need to crawl, roll, march, and skip around -- play, not train.

"It might reasonably be maintained that the true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; heaven is a playground." (GK Chesterton)

I must say I found the theory behind resets made a lot of sence to me and without reading ”Pressing reset” book, I don’t think OS would have sticked to my training, because the movements seem a bit silly at first. But we are all different. ?
 
@watchnerd ...yeah nice overview.
A friend of my musical theatre/ballet trained niece moved to london hoping all those years of ballet would lead to a west end career. Out of work decided to teach yoga. Literally overnight. Had all the necessary strength, flexibility and mobility. And then found a living.
It's how you sell and market the package, isn't it?
I'm not being cynical by the way, the diversity of thought is a good thing and people take to a particular thing because it rhymes with them, they make a connection.
I see all this stuff through intensity and complexity.
A movement modality that I came across here is Feldenkrais method.
For me, the Daddy of them all.
And if you were to package a lot of the therapeutic aspects to movement and have a box of tricks, easy to learn and easy to apply as low intensity, warm ups, during a session, it would be.....fast and loose.

@Steve W. ...?absolutely agree.
Play and exploration leads to better awareness.
That underpins Feldenkrais too.

There was a video going about recently of the death of football (soccer) legend Maradonna.
It was his warm up.
Interesting....basically fast and loose, hip circles. Dunno 30 years ago. To dance music. So unlike orthodox sport warm ups.....childlike, easy, playful.
It's in that frame of reference where good things happen, however you choose to frame it.
 
Would it be fair to say that in a young ’healthy’ person that performing OS (and similar) movements might not show any marked immediate improvements? But that the benefits need to be looked at in the long view? While in an older or perhaps more compromised position might see some more immediate changes? Or am I off the mark here?
I have seen benefits to coordination and reaction time with a high-school aged soccer player I have been doing @Geoff Neupert's latest P3/SKS program which targets vestibular 'calibration'. Not sure how you are defining "older or "more compromised" but I'm 42 and I personally felt a difference within a week of starting the program.
 
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