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Old Forum Viking warrior conditioning results? (Yeah I know)

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MohawkValley

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Hey everyone... I know vwc is hardly new, but I have found surprisingly little feedback from people who have actually completed even the full 15:15 protocol insofar as weight loss, rhr,etc.

It seems like these days many people don't really talk about it as much but a few years back it was the beez kneez. Was that partially due to the hype and marketing? Even former RKC guys who sang praises left and right about how amazing it was now seem to be pretty "meh" about it.

 

Anyways, my main question was for anyone who has used VWC, what type of results did you get? how did your body comp change? Did your conditioning improve on pace with what was advertised?

 

Thanks!

 

 
 
There were lots and lots of posts on it on dragondoor back in the day; search function there would keep you busy for days.

I did it for a while. I liked it; it was surprisingly enjoyable for someone like me who tends to hate "conditioning" work of any kind. I was able to progress well with it, and it certainly improved my VO2 max. That having been said, I found that vo2 max is a very specific quality, and actually had very little carryover to most of the activities that I partook in. For instance, I found that while it helped the snatch test somewhat, there were much easier and faster ways to learn to pass the snatch test, that took less time and had more carryover to other things.

If I was going to recommend it to someone (and honestly, very few of the people I work with need any specific kind of vo2 max work), I would probably use VPP instead of snatch. But, ymmv. What are your goals? or, try it yourself; two weeks is probably long enough for you to decided if it's right for you or not.
 
Jason,

Thanks I really appreciate the feedback, goals are to un-deskjockey myself. Prior military but now working in finance full time and full time grad school. Just looking for the most efficient way to get back to peak conditioning. I know that is a general goal but I am looking for the best way to generally increase my conditioning as quickly and efficiently as possible while minimizing the chance of injury... One thing about vwc I noticed was the light weight. Even with the high reps and potential bad form, it seems the weight would be light enough to be forgiving.

 

Dan John actually recommended the vo2 max protocol for learning proper snatch form...

 

thanks!

 
 
 I know that is a general goal but I am looking for the best way to generally increase my conditioning as quickly and efficiently as possible while minimizing the chance of injury… One thing about vwc I noticed was the light weight. Even with the high reps and potential bad form, it seems the weight would be light enough to be forgiving.
My experience with VWC is that I worked the 15:15 protocol up to 16kg x 80 x 8.

IMO, your form needs to be pretty solid BEFORE doing VWC. It's pretty high volume, you are always pushing the cadence and doing a lot of reps while fatigued, so there is a lot of potential for problems.

Problem 1: Hand tears.

If your drop technique is not good, the high volume and cadence will do a number on your hands.

Problem 2: Shoulder stress.

Chasing a high cadence leads a lot of people to fling the KB BACK violently into the lockout, often while simultaneously thrusting the chest/head/shoulders forward, to get a rebound effect into the drop, rather than caching the bell straight overhead.

The overspeed eccentric on the drop can put a lot of stress on the shoulder if you hinge too early in anticipation of the drop and catch the bell with the arm disconnected from the torso.

Trying to be too quick out of the bottom can also lead to a jerky transition that can be hard on the shoulder, elbow and/or hand.

Problem 3: Bad habits

In chasing a high cadence, a lot of people fall into the trap of incomplete hip extension and lockouts that fall short of vertical. Neither of these will really hurt you, but they aren't part of a well-executed snatch either.

That being said, if your form is pretty good to start with, VWC can help you fine tune and smooth out some things. But I wouldn't recommend it for someone who is too early in the snatch learning process.

 
 
Oh, almost forgot -- after I worked up to 16kg x 80 x 8, I worked up to 24kg x 60 x 7, but never went beyond that.
 
I agree with everything Steve said. I'd be curious to see where Dan John said that, as I have a feeling there may have been a broader context to the quote.

What does "peak conditioning" mean to you, and for what goal? Are you looking to go back into the military? (it doesn't sound like it, but I could be wrong). For health and well-being, this is certainly not the program I'd recommend. What lifting have you done before, and what were your numbers?

Honestly, I think you'd be best off doing S&S, from what you say so far. Get to at least the "simple" standards, which you might very well do in a few months or less, coming from an athletic background, especially if you follow the program as written. Not only will that give you a good base for almost anything else, but I think it will also help you clarify your goals.
 
I'm still a believer in the VO2 snatch methodology, and I find that it gives me wind like nothing else.  As such, I'll implement it at least twice a year: six weeks out from the semi-annual Navy fitness test. I'm one of those "3 mile a year" squids, but just following this protocol is all I've needed for the past several years to utterly spank young bucks half my age during the run portion.

 

Back in early 2008, I had used this snatch protocol as the lion's share for my RKC certification prep.  While I've never particularly agonized over my weight, it did seem as though using the 36:36 approach and working up to 20+ rounds with a 24-kilo KB (averaging 18-19 snatches per cycle) had slapped 5-10 pounds of meat on my carcass, if the weigh-in scales the DD folks were using were accurate.  After the course was over, I had stuck with the plan for a while longer, up until I had hit 30 rounds at that cadence.  My birthday gift to myself was a PR on the Secret Service Snatch Test of 262.

If it's that great, then why did I stop?  I discovered the joys of RoTK while on deployment, and heeded the Chief's advice to not even think about mixing the two.

 
 
Peterson,

Thanks for the feedback man, that is the kind of info I am looking for. When you implement the protocol 6 weeks or so out from PFT, do you tend to do 15:15 or 36:36? Do you tend to have a preference?
 
I tried VWC with a 16kg for a bit, it seemed like wasted energy I could have used for something else. I only saw results on recovering between activities. For a PFT or in general I train everything in the same week. 4-8x400 meter sprints once a week and a varied distance timed run once a week.

For body comp the 32kg was what made it happen  for me.
 
Lately, I've been reading a good bit about different muscle fiber types, energy pathways, and figures of merit like VO2 Max. Don't be impressed - there's a LOT of crap information around these subjects on the web. One article I came across cited several studies in which VO2 Max changed, but performance in the relevant event did not; others where performance improved while VO2 Max did not; and others in which athletes with "low" VO2 Max  outperformed those with better ones. The author's point was plain: of what value is training to raise VO2 Max if it correlates only very loosely with performance?

This is not intended as a swipe at VWC.  I mean, who wouldn't want "a heart of elastic steel"?
 
Makes sense, Bill. But wouldn't VO2 max tend to correlate with a seriously healthy cardiovascular system in general? Like for overall health aka not randomly keeling over from a heart attack, increasing longevity, etc do you think having a highly conditioned VO2 max would constitute "health" Even if not necessarily athletic performance?
 
It's literally been at least 3 years since I even picked up the book from my bookshelf, but...

I LOVED the VWC workouts.

I'd rank it up there with 20 rep breathing squats as most memorable, mind altering, next level pushing protocols I've ever followed.

I got up to 20kg 36:36 after several months of concerted effort.  I felt pretty bulletproof physically.  Was lean (for me..usually carry a little fat).  And felt I could pretty much do anything.  I remember running some hills behind work at lunch with some friends that were tri athletes and ultra race types.  I felt I could run strong forever.  I did 125 reps with 24kg at a TSC in 5 minutes.  I only wish I had the "presence of mind" to go 5 more minutes and smash the SSST, which I've never achieved.  But, was in an altered state of consciousness by the time 125 reps was done...

The protocols after 15:15 and 36:36 seemed too hard to implement and did not really make sense to me.

I posted about VWC a bunch back in the day at the Dragondoor.com forums.  I also achieved the highest levels of euphoria I've ever hit from working out a couple times, literally.  Felt like I was walking 6 inches off the ground for one or two hours after...oh yeah, and could totally relate when someone said something about seeing stars and Elvis :]
 
Prior military but now working in finance full time and full time grad school. Just looking for the most efficient way to get back to peak conditioning.
I can relate.  I'm not in a full time job, but I'm a full time law student.  The more avenues I explore, the more I realize how good Simple and Sinister really is.  I'd give it a shot if I were you.  Jumping right into high-rep snatches could lead to shoulder issues, and doing 10 sets of 10 swings in under five minutes will get you to a pretty good base of fitness to start exploring from.

That said, I also really like working the basic movements in complexes.  After doing 150 swings this morning, I did a ladder of single hand swings, clean & press, snatch, squat from the clean position.  i.e., swing right, swing left, clean/press right, then left, snatch right, then left, squat right, then left.
 
"Makes sense, Bill. But wouldn’t VO2 max tend to correlate with a seriously healthy cardiovascular system in general? Like for overall health aka not randomly keeling over from a heart attack, increasing longevity, etc do you think having a highly conditioned VO2 max would constitute “health” Even if not necessarily athletic performance?"

No, not in the slightest. In some cases, the opposite. If health is your goal, there are many better uses of your time.

Look, it sounds like you really want to do the workout; if so, that's fine, just do it. Enjoying what you do and being motivated to do it are pretty key to long-term success for a lot of us. You don't need permission from any of us, or justification. There are much worse things you could do, and since you don't have any real goals, go ahead and make 40:40 at whatever cadence you get your goal for now ("GFN").

Lost in all this is, where are you at with kettlebells? KJ used to recommend that people not do the program until they'd already completed the SSST, i.e. 200 snatches in 10 minutes with a 24. I think that's a bit of overkill, but if you can't do, say, 60 reps in 3 minutes with a 24, I would keep this on the shelf for a bit. On the other hand, if you're snatching a 32 for sets of 10, go nuts.

Inevitably, someone's going to read this, whether Nate or someone else, and say "but I...*justification for wanting to do it anyway*...", to which I say great, if you want to, go ahead, do it. My opinion is that it's not the best choice, but hey, you paid nothing for my opinion, so you're not wasting any money by disregarding it, and it's my opinion based on only a small sliver of info on you. At the end of the day, it's your book, your body, your 'bells. Do what you like, and what you decide is best.
 
Nate, if you were still interested, I use the :36/:36 protocol with the 24 kilo (once, I entertained the notion of gradually building up to doing those sets with a 32).  To be completely honest, I never actually tried the :15/:15 method, since the first time I'd ever read about this type of training was on the DD forum in a topic that pre-dated the publication of VWC as a means to improve SSST numbers.  At the time, there was no mention of anything but the 36 school of thought, and after hitting the numbers that I had with the plan as written, I never saw the need to fix something that obviously wasn't broken.

 
 
J,

Good looking out! I remember reading about the 36:36 being the original program. Could be wrong but it is almost like 15:15 was created to make it more accessible, but I could be totally off base. In any case, thanks for the info man I appreciate it!

 
 
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