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Kettlebell Volume swings or snatches?

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Bret S.

Level 8 Valued Member
@Harald Motz
Yesss! Harald thank you! For all you contribute.. This is the gold I seek and you have just 'proven' this stuff works wonders, congratulations to you, Al C. and all others involved with this A+A project.
I've decided recently(yesterday) to begin incorporating as much A+A snatching as my body will allow, (probably bits for now) which fits in with my past methods of prep for a new program or regimen. My mantra when bodybuilding years ago was 'if you want to lift heavy weights, you have to lift heavy weights'. It's not quite that simple but I did gain some decent strength and size (we're talking 80's here).
I can't wait to take the A+A training wheels off and be riding on my own. This is the secret of STRONGEVITY and I will not miss out on the opportunity.
 

Sean M

Level 7 Valued Member
@Harald Motz
Yesss! Harald thank you! For all you contribute.. This is the gold I seek and you have just 'proven' this stuff works wonders, congratulations to you, Al C. and all others involved with this A+A project.
I've decided recently(yesterday) to begin incorporating as much A+A snatching as my body will allow, (probably bits for now) which fits in with my past methods of prep for a new program or regimen. My mantra when bodybuilding years ago was 'if you want to lift heavy weights, you have to lift heavy weights'. It's not quite that simple but I did gain some decent strength and size (we're talking 80's here).
I can't wait to take the A+A training wheels off and be riding on my own. This is the secret of STRONGEVITY and I will not miss out on the opportunity.
We should follow the same cycle I laid out a few posts ago, an n=2 experiment.
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Thanks Bret, I like your thought and fruitful contributions to the discussions big time.
For the snatch I am especially amazed, that it must not irritate the shoulder, even used for volume and intensity.

I would advise you to ease into it, start with a moderately heavy weight for 3-4 reps per repeat. When snatching really heavy, I personally like to breathe as follows: a short sharp inhale when commencing the negative then I am braced through the "down snatch" and I really prefer to exhale on the catch to lockout or even in the lockout. The breathing pattern I use for very heavy resembles that of a heavy squat. This makes sure, that I am braced better, and it can make a more stable and tensed lockout. Play with your breathing and see how it can affect you in the different stages of the snatch. I general the outbreath is taught to be on hip extension, I personally do not like that for going heavy for the reasons described above.

Another helpful tool for me was and still is from time to time to snatch in front of the mirror, not to check myself snatching, but to check my lockout. The mirror will reflect. Bluntly. As I said start with 3 - 4 reps, check your lockout and stay into it, and it can not be a bad idea to stay in the beginning a second or longer. I see the lockout as the set up for the next rep, there you can literally think through a ballistic to prepare you for a strong and braced negative. Usually, when I do my repeats, my first lockout is the longest.

So I think there are quite a few aspects, where VWC snatches are quite different from A+A snatches.
 

Bret S.

Level 8 Valued Member
Thanks Bret, I like your thought and fruitful contributions to the discussions big time.
For the snatch I am especially amazed, that it must not irritate the shoulder, even used for volume and intensity.

I would advise you to ease into it, start with a moderately heavy weight for 3-4 reps per repeat. When snatching really heavy, I personally like to breathe as follows: a short sharp inhale when commencing the negative then I am braced through the "down snatch" and I really prefer to exhale on the catch to lockout or even in the lockout. The breathing pattern I use for very heavy resembles that of a heavy squat. This makes sure, that I am braced better, and it can make a more stable and tensed lockout. Play with your breathing and see how it can affect you in the different stages of the snatch. I general the outbreath is taught to be on hip extension, I personally do not like that for going heavy for the reasons described above.

Another helpful tool for me was and still is from time to time to snatch in front of the mirror, not to check myself snatching, but to check my lockout. The mirror will reflect. Bluntly. As I said start with 3 - 4 reps, check your lockout and stay into it, and it can not be a bad idea to stay in the beginning a second or longer. I see the lockout as the set up for the next rep, there you can literally think through a ballistic to prepare you for a strong and braced negative. Usually, when I do my repeats, my first lockout is the longest.

So I think there are quite a few aspects, where VWC snatches are quite different from A+A snatches.
Thanks Harald and thank you for the breathing tips with heavy snatching, just so I'm clear on what you said I'm essentially holding breath and tension thru the descending and ascending portion (keeping high valsalvic pressure for protection) then doing the exhale to lockout after the hard effort subsides, hold lockout for a time, focus my mind, then sharp inhale to repeat while maximally protecting myself from injury. If that's it I like it alot.
Regarding VWC snatching my shoulders love them as there's no grind involved, I think that's why my shoulders love getups so much.
I'm going to have to be efficient at dual mode snatching, it should be fun as I'm really a technique geek of sorts. I've done MA technique learning in the same way, first be technically correct and solid, then move on to feel and the real intricacies of the technique. Very much up my alley so to speak.
 

Sean M

Level 7 Valued Member
I'm in it, n=3, starting in a week or 2.

@Harald Motz Thanks for all the inspiration!
I’m going to start next week. PM me your email and I’ll share a spreadsheet I’m using to keep track. You too @Brett S (and anyone else) if we want to follow a general pattern together. The particular days of sessions and repeats per session could probably vary for each of us, depending on our schedules and lives.

I’m planning to do a 24kg 5:00 snatch test this Saturday for a baseline. May also measure weight and waist circumference and resting HR for some other data points.
 

dcc449

Level 6 Valued Member
I’m going to start next week. PM me your email and I’ll share a spreadsheet I’m using to keep track. You too @Brett S (and anyone else) if we want to follow a general pattern together. The particular days of sessions and repeats per session could probably vary for each of us, depending on our schedules and lives.

I’m planning to do a 24kg 5:00 snatch test this Saturday for a baseline. May also measure weight and waist circumference and resting HR for some other data points.

This looks like a great plan. I was similarly sketching out a snatch plan based on the same principles, but would love to hop onboard this group. Little worried my hands aren't quite ready for that volume of snatching, but figure its easy enough to substitute some sets of 7 swings if needed. I'll shoot you a pm.
 

Steve W.

Level 8 Valued Member
If I wanted to "program" A+A work for the next 6-8 weeks for myself without access to the official protocols (and no book yet :(), is the 15%-20%-30%-35% formula from this old article a valid wave structure for this?

So like:
  • Average of 3 sessions/week, 30 repeats per session (720 repeats in 8 weeks, 360 x 2 segments)
  • Week 1 (20%), ~72 repeats, 3 days (session repeats in the range of 20-40, centering on 24-36)
  • Week 2 (35%), ~128 repeats, 4 days
  • Week 3 (30%), ~104 repeats, 3 days
  • Week 4 (15%), ~56 repeats, 2 days
  • Similar-but-different wave for weeks 5-8?
  • Never the same volume % back-to-back, and always alter the number of repeats from session to session?
Careful, awhile back another poster adapted this concept (from the same article) to a press program and got accused of spilling the beans on some top secret, highly classified Plan Strong intel. It all got sorted out amicably, but you might want to be careful about touching any doorknobs for awhile ;-).
 

Sean M

Level 7 Valued Member
Careful, awhile back another poster adapted this concept (from the same article) to a press program and got accused of spilling the beans on some top secret, highly classified Plan Strong intel. It all got sorted out amicably, but you might want to be careful about touching any doorknobs for awhile ;-).
That's fine with me! If so, I would just stick to the format already published here, which waves within the week but increases linearly as weeks go along; at least until there is something published from SF with an "A+A for the people" protocol (???)
 

Bret S.

Level 8 Valued Member
We should follow the same cycle I laid out a few posts ago, an n=2 experiment.
If this is imminent I won't be able to participate as my shoulder isn't ready for prime time unfortunately. I was doing pretty good but played with Viking Push Presses and really annoyed the heck out of it. I think Forest Gump nailed it, 'stupid is as stupid does' :mad: o_O :)

I'm just going to be patient and coax it back into shape
 

fractal

Level 6 Valued Member
If this is imminent I won't be able to participate as my shoulder isn't ready for prime time unfortunately. I was doing pretty good but played with Viking Push Presses and really annoyed the heck out of it. I think Forest Gump nailed it, 'stupid is as stupid does' :mad: o_O :)

I'm just going to be patient and coax it back into shape

Sorry to hear. If you've got a few minutes can you send me a PM with some info about your shoulder and I'll see if anything comes to mind that may help
 

Al Ciampa

Level 7 Valued Member
Careful, awhile back another poster adapted this concept (from the same article) to a press program and got accused of spilling the beans on some top secret, highly classified Plan Strong intel. It all got sorted out amicably, but you might want to be careful about touching any doorknobs for awhile ;-).

I don't see how exactly copying something already published for public consumption for one's self qualifies, unless they were intended to rebox and sell it?

That's fine with me! If so, I would just stick to the format already published here, which waves within the week but increases linearly as weeks go along; at least until there is something published from SF with an "A+A for the people" protocol (???)

Your plan is a very general adoption and would work. If you're interested in running one of the actual A+A plans and would send me the results, PM me. The offer goes for anyone else as well in the next week or so.

@Sean M , if you want to take lead on this and combine everyone in one PM or email that would be great. I don't want to micromanage a slew of requests.

Disclaimer: Here's the rub that I didn't understand well myself at first: Similar to long term, easy running adaptations, A+A is the long game. You might be disappointed in the results after 6-8 weeks.
 

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I don't see how exactly copying something already published for public consumption for one's self qualifies, unless they were intended to rebox and sell it?



Your plan is a very general adoption and would work. If you're interested in running one of the actual A+A plans and would send me the results, PM me. The offer goes for anyone else as well in the next week or so.

@Sean M , if you want to take lead on this and combine everyone in one PM or email that would be great. I don't want to micromanage a slew of requests.

Disclaimer: Here's the rub that I didn't understand well myself at first: Similar to long term, easy running adaptations, A+A is the long game. You might be disappointed in the results after 6-8 weeks.
Makes sense. Looking at @Anna C's progress, seems like the marked improvement came comparing the baseline to the 12 week mark.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Makes sense. Looking at @Anna C's progress, seems like the marked improvement came comparing the baseline to the 12 week mark.

Yes, and I'm a fairly meticulous tester and record-keeper, but the one thing pre- and post-tests can't account for is the longer-lasting effects of previous training. i.e. Was I successful in S&S because of a strong aerobic engine from bike riding? Was I successful in A+A because of months of S&S? Was I successful in building barbell strength because of A+A? Will I be successful in future endeavors because of barbell training? Hard to say...
 

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Yes, and I'm a fairly meticulous tester and record-keeper, but the one thing pre- and post-tests can't account for is the longer-lasting effects of previous training. i.e. Was I successful in S&S because of a strong aerobic engine from bike riding? Was I successful in A+A because of months of S&S? Was I successful in building barbell strength because of A+A? Will I be successful in future endeavors because of barbell training? Hard to say...
Good point. Guess we should all be thankful that we make the progress we do.
 

Brookes

Level 5 Valued Member
If you're interested in running one of the actual A+A plans and would send me the results, PM me. The offer goes for anyone else as well in the next week or so.

@aciampa Does this offer still stand if one can not start with it before october? If yes, I would joyfully participate, since I´m longer interested in this topic as it seem to suit my training preferences.
 

Steve W.

Level 8 Valued Member
I don't see how exactly copying something already published for public consumption for one's self qualifies, unless they were intended to rebox and sell it?
A user posted a press plan based on a swing plan publicly published in an article on this website, but with the reps scaled down to an appropriate volume for presses. The initial post just laid out the plan without explaining the genesis of it.

The powers that be mistook this for a proprietary experimental StrongFirst program that was supposed to be confidential. The user in question never participated in or had access to any confidential experimental plans and had completely based his plan on publicly available information. The post with the plan was initially deleted, but then restored when the confusion was resolved. Really much ado about nothing, but the post in this thread reminded me of that incident so I made a joke about it.

Ladders question (Scroll down from this post to see the conflict and resolution)
 
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Sean M

Level 7 Valued Member
All, here is a link to sign up for Al’s test protocol:
[removed - cohort closed]

I’ll be in touch after you submit the form.
 
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kiwipete

Level 8 Valued Member
Yes, it did for me. Here are my results from 2 cycles of A+A snatches. As you can see on the bottom right box testing summary, my 5-min snatch with 16kg went up, but my 5- min snatch with 20kg went WAY up. So, was the increase more metabolic/energy systems, or pure strength? I don't know the answer, but I felt like it was some of both.

View attachment 6197

@Anna C

Thank you for posting your data!

Apologies if already mentioned.... you maintained your DL number without any Dl'ing?
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
you maintained your DL number without any Dl'ing?

Pretty much, yes. I would have to peruse my training logs for that period of time to say for sure. (You are welcome to do so if you wish :)) But I know I wasn't training my deadlift during that period of time. For context, I had about a 225 lb deadlift with practice/training in 2014-2015 (prior to 2014, none at all), got it up to 250ish where it hovered for a while, just through occasional deadlifting but frequent heavy swings and snatches in 2016-early 2017, then trained it to 275 in Aug 2017, now have been barbell training all of 2018 and it's up to 315 as of last Friday.
 
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