Kettlebell Volume/weight increase after timeless simple

[John Howland]

Hi folks, I will be starting to incorporate the 40kg bell after timeless simple is met in one week. I am looking to build the strength reserve and plan to begin by adding sets 3/4 just like when adding sets of the the next weight in timeless simple.
I have been doing 5 days per week all throughout timeless simple. The book says to drop the training frequency down to 3-4 days per week at that point as well. So my question is, given less volume, should I plan to stick with each new phase with the 40kg bell longer in order to make up for the volume or is one month still the target?
In this case, if I was doing 20 sessions per month, it would take me 5 weeks to get the same volume in. Your advise is greatly appreciated!

 

[Nacho]

It seems that it becomes more individual after Simple. Maybe its better to err on the side of staying on the step for a bit longer than progressing too fast. And remember, you might also need to back off like described in S&S 2.0 book. I reached timeless simple 2,5 months ago and since then I have been using 32kg and only occasionally added set with a 36kg bell and still I feel like I have kept on making progress. My swings get more and more explosive and I keep finding something new in the get up still with using 32kg.

 

[barrak]

Interesting thoughts! Cutting down from, say, 5 days to 3 is 40% reduction in weekly volume! Could that explain why people often get stuck after Simple?

Would that suggest, alternatively, to opt for the expensive option of making 4K jumps and sticking to 5-6 weekly sessions after Simple?

I too would like to hear from the small pool of Sinister strong.

 

[Molson]

First, do it by the book by shifting to 3-4, but it 4 is better if you can. Then, forget the suggested 4 week/1 month step period. It’s just an average assumption. The key is being fair and with yourself about assessing both recovery and owning each step.

Just to share my experience, I had been more or less progrssing on the schedule for 4 steps in 4 months but had to go back and build back another 4 months, as it came not to be that linear after some point. Covid did not help also.

Good luck.

 

[John Howland]

First, do it by the book by shifting to 3-4, but it 4 is better if you can. Then, forget the suggested 4 week/1 month step period. It’s just an average assumption. The key is being fair and with yourself about assessing both recovery and owning each step.

Just to share my experience, I had been more or less progrssing on the schedule for 4 steps in 4 months but had to go back and build back another 4 months, as it came not to be that linear after some point. Covid did not help also.

Good luck.

Thanks! I like your description of it becoming less linear at a point. I was sort of assuming that it would become more of a “feel your way through it” situation but the ocd part of me likes to have a plan to stick to .

 

[John Howland]

Interesting thoughts! Cutting down from, say, 5 days to 3 is 40% reduction in weekly volume! Could that explain why people often get stuck after Simple?

Would that suggest, alternatively, to opt for the expensive option of making 4K jumps and sticking to 5-6 weekly sessions after Simple?

I too would like to hear from the small pool of Sinister strong.

I hadn’t thought of the 4kg jump, though I’ll probably stick with the 40 since I have it already. If I get stuck I might look into it. We‘ll if anyone offers thoughts on that. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Bauer]

Thanks! I like your description of it becoming less linear at a point. I was sort of assuming that it would become more of a “feel your way through it” situation but the ocd part of me likes to have a plan to stick to .

I have asked Pavel this question below one of his articles and here is his answer:
"if you can still progress withing that time frame—great. If not, extend the time to stay with a given load. "

Lift No Faster Than You Can Talk: An Excerpt from S&S 2.0 | StrongFirst

Ensure the anti-glycolytic nature of your Simple and Sinister training with the talk test. Excerpt from the Revised & Updated Edition.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Adachi]

after reaching the 24k and re evaluating my feelings with this bell, I've gone to the trouble to alter a google calendar i use to extend my step loading by 1 week each step , and to extend my dedicated time with the 24k bell to 6 weeks. i'm sure i'll take a similar look at the 32k bell when i get my hands on one. at this point my hypothetical calendar takes me all the way into december 2021 with reaching the 48k on S&S 2.0 protocol. less mental ram is better for me. But, the basic question is do i own this step ? rephrased: does this feel like a toy yet? at which point, when the answer is yes, i'll step it up .

Edit: i am surprised at how the 24k feels like i did with the 16k bell. i'm hoping that feeling continues all the way through the 48k.

 

[Molson]

after reaching the 24k and re evaluating my feelings with this bell, I've gone to the trouble to alter a google calendar i use to extend my step loading by 1 week each step , and to extend my dedicated time with the 24k bell to 6 weeks. i'm sure i'll take a similar look at the 32k bell when i get my hands on one. at this point my hypothetical calendar takes me all the way into december 2021 with reaching the 48k on S&S 2.0 protocol. less mental ram is better for me. But, the basic question is do i own this step ? rephrased: does this feel like a toy yet? at which point, when the answer is yes, i'll step it up .

Edit: i am surprised at how the 24k feels like i did with the 16k bell. i'm hoping that feeling continues all the way through the 48k.

Someone said on this forum that S&S is like climbing a mountain. Pre Simple it’s a training camp and then the climb starts, but it might require a few attempts.

Personally, my experiences with 24 and 32 had been different than with 40kg. The former were demanding, but my feel for the progression was more acurate. Then, the first attempts with 40kg felt like just another bell. But regular work came to be a different story and the lurking fatigue harder to manage. I know that I could attempt swinging and doing get ups with 48kg, but taking it to the standard would give me challenges I can’t far see now, staring at the mountain from the bottom.

 

[watchnerd]

Then, the first attempts with 40kg felt like just another bell. But regular work came to be a different story and the lurking fatigue harder to manage. I know that I could attempt swinging and doing get ups with 48kg, but taking it to the standard would give me challenges I can’t far see now, staring at the mountain from the bottom.

+1

At swings >= 40kg for 10x10 sets , the recovery impact (at least for me) is such that weekly volume has to be reduced, and interference with barbell programming goes up significantly.

Also, it's over the power production (1/3 bodyweight) sweet spot at my bodyweight.

I can use S&S as an adjunct to barbell lifting up to about 32-36 kg, but from >40kg, the tax is high. If you're a dedicated KB-only lifter, it's a probably different story.

Presses don't have the same issue for me.

 

[watchnerd]

Edit: i am surprised at how the 24k feels like i did with the 16k bell. i'm hoping that feeling continues all the way through the 48k.

I find that feeling changes fairly dramatically once you get to higher fractions of your bodyweight.

Especially with 1H swings.

A 40 kg bell is 40% of my bodyweight; controlling that 1 handed has a low margin of error.

 

[Adachi]

If you're a dedicated KB-only lifter, it's a probably different story.

I happen to mean to find this out as a kettlebell only lifter myself.

 

[ShawnM]

+1

At swings >= 40kg for 10x10 sets , the recovery impact (at least for me) is such that weekly volume has to be reduced, and interference with barbell programming goes up significantly.

Also, it's over the power production (1/3 bodyweight) sweet spot at my bodyweight.

I can use S&S as an adjunct to barbell lifting up to about 32-36 kg, but from >40kg, the tax is high. If you're a dedicated KB-only lifter, it's a probably different story.

Presses don't have the same issue for me.

You may want to swap a 10 x 10 day into an A&A style 20 x 5 rep day. I find them just as productive and they don’t wear me down so much. I alternate 20 x 5 and 10 x 10 days into a near every other day plan, keeps me from beating myself up and the 20 x 5 days really let me focus on power.

 

[Pavel Macek]

My suggestion is to cut to 4 days: Mon, Tue; Thu, Fri worked perfectly for me.

 

[John Locke]

Thanks! I like your description of it becoming less linear at a point. I was sort of assuming that it would become more of a “feel your way through it” situation but the ocd part of me likes to have a plan to stick to .

Instead of linear I would think like
KBmax*[1-e^(-k*t)]

So quite linear in the beginning but with asymptotic behavior (KBmax) as you progress.

 

[watchnerd]

You may want to swap a 10 x 10 day into an A&A style 20 x 5 rep day. I find them just as productive and they don’t wear me down so much. I alternate 20 x 5 and 10 x 10 days into a near every other day plan, keeps me from beating myself up and the 20 x 5 days really let me focus on power.

Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe I'll try it when I finish the current training cycle.

However, my goals for kettlebell training are conditioning and accessory work to help make me better at my sport (Olympic weightlifting), not to get better at kettlebells for their own sake, or to achieve Sinister.

If it happens, awesome! But it's not the main objective for me.

 

[Anth]

I wonder, have you (or anyone) tried bringing the 40 into practice with 1-arm dead lifts first? Or just half get ups?
Something like 80 swings with the 32, then 20 1-arm deadlifts. Eventually replacing 10 of those deadlifts with swings, then replacing all of them, and so on.
My thought is to get used to the grip and weight in general, and make the 32 feel lighter. That’s what I plan to do next month when I get my 40.

 

[Molson]

I wonder, have you (or anyone) tried bringing the 40 into practice with 1-arm dead lifts first? Or just half get ups?
Something like 80 swings with the 32, then 20 1-arm deadlifts. Eventually replacing 10 of those deadlifts with swings, then replacing all of them, and so on.
My thought is to get used to the grip and weight in general, and make the 32 feel lighter. That’s what I plan to do next month when I get my 40.

I re-introduced single KB DL to my S&S warm up. It helps me to tune in the hinge. As for any other carryover to swing with this same weight, i don’t think it really would help with power production nor grip. It’s just a slow down for reviewing your form. Dead stops are better as they help both the hinge form and the power production.

 

[watchnerd]

I wonder, have you (or anyone) tried bringing the 40 into practice with 1-arm dead lifts first? Or just half get ups?
Something like 80 swings with the 32, then 20 1-arm deadlifts. Eventually replacing 10 of those deadlifts with swings, then replacing all of them, and so on.
My thought is to get used to the grip and weight in general, and make the 32 feel lighter. That’s what I plan to do next month when I get my 40.

IMHO, single-side suitcase carries for distance with a 40kg is much better at training grip (and cross-body core) than 40 kg deadlifts.

40kg deadlifts are just too easy; it might be useful for movement patterning, though.

 

[Oso Rojo]

I would say, listen to your body's recover cycle. Can you recover in time to swing again the next day. If you are 19 the likely you can go every day. I'm 58 and it takes me two days to recover from swinging 40. So in the post 32 world I had to cut down to every other day. Looking at the speed in which you reached simple, you may be able to keep every day.

How old are you?