VWC or QD 044?

taro

Level 6 Valued Member
Which program is better to start ?
QD 044 or VWC?
I would probably do QD with 20kg and VWC with 16kg.
I will do a test for VWC.
Recently I have been doing my own strength training (Clean / press / squat) and I have to do something to conditioning.

If I had to run one program after another, where should I start?
 

sizzlefuzz

Level 6 Valued Member
Can you do Simple? If so, I enjoyed this program:


However, I don't think it would be good to combine with another sport or activity. It gets very tough in the final couple of weeks so recovery is at a premium. I have never done VWC, but I did read the book, I think this Simple to Serious Endurance accomplishes similar ends with less wear and tear on the body. With the swing-based program I was definitely "tired" but never had any serious nagging issues.
 

Rick213

Level 6 Valued Member
I have not performed VWC but love 044. If your snatch technique is solid it is an awesome program that definitely gives more than it takes.
 

johnnydeftonesa

Level 5 Valued Member
If I remember, VWC is done with a pretty light weight for very high reps. Lots of cardio. You'll get that runner's high. But it's a completely different adaptation than Q&D. I'd have to reference SE material for more specifics. Q&D is all power and with a heavy (relative to VWC) weight. I think Q&D is probably more worth for your training time.
 

taro

Level 6 Valued Member
Couple yearas ago I did 80 sests snatches 16kg, 6reps/15s.

Year ago i did 6 weeks QD 044 with kb 20kg.

If I wanted to do one program after another, where should I start?

I know they are different. I would do QD with a heavier kb.
 

johnnydeftonesa

Level 5 Valued Member
Ah sorry about that, I was replying quickly during a lunch break to what I thought I read.
Your question reminds me of the StrongFirst Speaks newsletter that came out a few months ago. It featured Derek Toshner's training and how he strung together various SE programs. He would do 033, then 044, the 060, and then SE template 12 as snatch-walking. I don't know where VWC might fall on the SE continuum, but in this instance I relate it most closely to 060 and template 12. So I would say do 044 then do VWC. Of course, if you then do 044 again, would you say you started with VWC...? Either way, snatch is king!
 

taro

Level 6 Valued Member
I don't know if I will do this program.
I'm just wondering which would be worth doing first.
There is definitely an optimal order. Or maybe there is no ...

What is 060?
What is SE?
What is SF Speaks?
 

blutsj

Level 6 Valued Member
I have done lots of vwc workouts, using the 18 kg kb. Never went to 80 sets. Lots of times 30-40 sets nonstop or Several sets. So not exactly by the book and used only the :15/:15 protocol. Not the other protocols described in the book as I never went to the 80 sets. I combined it with running in a workout.

Eg:
2.1 km run
30-40 sets vwc snatch
2.1 km run

Or
1.5 km run
20 sets vwc
1.5 km run
20 sets vwc
1.5 km run
Sometimes the second round above I used push presses here instead of the snatch. Found that one harder to do.

Had great cardio. Used it to prepare for the annual pt test. The pt test went easy. Did not even sweat.

I liked it at least, but your heartrate will raise high. Not like q&d were you keep it low because the rest periods will take care of that.

But I think it also depends on your goal and what you like/ prefer.
 
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BrianCF

Level 6 Valued Member
In regard to VWC, sometimes the truth is harsh. Can you get in ridiculous shape. from it? Absolutely, but too much risk.

1. Sloppy form. If you're trying to beat the clock for sets of 7 or 8, sooner or later fatigues sets in and form breaks down. Then do 36:36. Remember when Logan did the 300 reps in 10 minutes? Same thing, as impressive as it was, the form was a C- on it's best day
2. Hand care. Yes it's easier to snatch a lighter bell but sooner or later, you will get hot spots which lead to blisters. Everyone has torn skin doing snatches, one pinch and pop, Blisters are injuries.
3. Elbow forearm issues. That type of volume of 250+ snatches per arm a couple of times a week. is not good. I don't think anything over 100 per arm is good. Tennis elbow being the main culprit, bruised forearms from a couple of bad reps.

Much better off doing 200 with a 24. As a matter of fact Steve, I still sincerely believe and I mean this, the best snatch workout there is one you mentioned a few years ago. 20 minutes, sets of 5 L, 5R rest to top of each minute. Form stays crisp especially in regard to your hands. You get at least 20 seconds rest, so though you'll huff and puff, fatigue doesn't set in as quickly, and you get the volume with heavier bell in a 24 vs. a 16.

When that becomes easy, add a rep or reduce the rest by 5 seconds.

The author of VWC and Perfecting the Press put out workouts for mutants. 100 + reps of presses on each side isn't good either for most. Too much volume, but I digress.
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
It's not what we recommend at StrongFirst
Maybe not currently or directly at StrongFirst, but VWC was endorsed by Pavel when it was published and I attended an RKC certification led by Pavel where a VWC session was part of the course.

I've done the 15:15 program extensively, up to 16kg x 9reps x 80sets and 24kg x 7reps x 60 sets. I suffered no elbow, shoulder or hand problems, or any other negative orthopedic effects. I made rapid and steady progress throughout and felt generally felt great physically. This was in my mid-40s, with a lot of hard mileage from a lifetime of basketball, so I wasn't a young kid who could absorb any kind of training volume.

However, there are a few reasons I moved away form doing VWC:
--The pace is unpleasantly rushed.
--Sweat management was a constant problem. I was in air conditioning, had fans blowing on me, geared up with headbands and wristbands, and it was still frantically toweling off my hands and rechalking between sets, not to mention standing in a puddle.
--I got a very severe and persistent respiratory infection that stopped me from training for while and had a long and difficult recover with several relapses. Did VWC contribute to getting sick in any way? I don't know, but the association in time created a negative association in my mind. Since I didn't really enjoy the actual training anyway, it was a good excuse not to return to the program.
 

william bad butt

Level 6 Valued Member
In regard to VWC, sometimes the truth is harsh. Can you get in ridiculous shape. from it? Absolutely, but too much risk.

1. Sloppy form. If you're trying to beat the clock for sets of 7 or 8, sooner or later fatigues sets in and form breaks down. Then do 36:36. Remember when Logan did the 300 reps in 10 minutes? Same thing, as impressive as it was, the form was a C- on it's best day
2. Hand care. Yes it's easier to snatch a lighter bell but sooner or later, you will get hot spots which lead to blisters. Everyone has torn skin doing snatches, one pinch and pop, Blisters are injuries.
3. Elbow forearm issues. That type of volume of 250+ snatches per arm a couple of times a week. is not good. I don't think anything over 100 per arm is good. Tennis elbow being the main culprit, bruised forearms from a couple of bad reps.

Much better off doing 200 with a 24. As a matter of fact Steve, I still sincerely believe and I mean this, the best snatch workout there is one you mentioned a few years ago. 20 minutes, sets of 5 L, 5R rest to top of each minute. Form stays crisp especially in regard to your hands. You get at least 20 seconds rest, so though you'll huff and puff, fatigue doesn't set in as quickly, and you get the volume with heavier bell in a 24 vs. a 16.

When that becomes easy, add a rep or reduce the rest by 5 seconds.

The author of VWC and Perfecting the Press put out workouts for mutants. 100 + reps of presses on each side isn't good either for most. Too much volume, but I digress.
VWC... I agree.

I do like "Perfecting the Press", however. It is basically how I program all of my strength-lifts. Althiugh you can ignore the 1st 95% of the book and just follow the plan in the last few pages with no specialized excersises. I always thought VWC was so over rated and "PtP" was so under rated.

Eric
 

Justin_M

Level 1 Valued Member
I have to do something to conditioning.
Sorry up front for not actually answering the question directly but...

What is the objective of the conditioning you are looking for? The body has multiple energy systems to be trained for adaptation.
  1. Alactic Power (~7 seconds) (i.e. Football)
  2. Alactic Capacity (~15 seconds) (i.e., 100m Sprinter)
  3. Lactic Power (~30 seconds) (i.e., 200m Sprinter)
  4. Lactic Capacity (~60 seconds) (i.e., 400m Sprinter)
  5. Aerobic Power (~8 minutes) (i.e. Hockey, 800-1600m Runner)
  6. Aerobic Capacity (~∞) (i.e., Mountaineer, Triathlete)
Where in that spectrum is the adaptation you need to improve? Q&D is intended to train alactic capacity and lactic power while intentionally minimizing lactic capacity. VWC is a VO2 max aerobic power training program that uses the kettlebell snatch instead of a track, bike, rower, etc.

Q&D timing is excellent and can be used successfully with many exercise variations that could be more specific to the needs of the athlete if the conditioning objective is for short bursts. VWC is a 1:1 ratio of short durations because 3-5 minutes continuous effort with a kettlebell isn't a party to attend often.

VO2max training is what I would consider doing once per week and not the type of adaptation a person should train exclusively. VO2 max training is hard and stressful and the duration of the bouts should be 1:1 if using long efforts in the 3-5 minute range or 2:1 if using short efforts like 40":20". Regardless, the total working time needs to be quite low because the effort should be quite high, something like 9-15 minutes of total work.

I would argue that most people need aerobic capacity and aerobic power training for conditioning and probably in a 3:1 ratio of those two things. That being the case, if given the self-limiting constraint of using a kettlebell to train conditioning, I would consider A+A three times per week and Q&D or VWC once per week depending on the desired adaptation (personally I would chose Q&D). I would also limit VWC to 20 minutes, anything longer and the intensity is likely not quite high enough.

If not constrained, I would do >40' of low intensity steady state (LISS) three times per week and run/row/bike/etc. hard in 3-8 minute intervals with 1-3 minute rests once per week.

Again, sorry for not providing a direct answer to the original question.
 
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