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Kettlebell VWC questions

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448 snatches with 24 kg? That´s amazing.

Well, thank you.

That was the result of a sustained and incremental training process, so it didn't feel that special at the time (this was during 2009-2010, spanning the period before and after my first RKC cert), although I did and do feel proud of it. It also didn't feel that special because around that same time, I failed several SSST attempts (200 snatches in 10 minutes), even though I could do that VWC workout (448 snatches/32 minutes) and I could do the 100 rep test in a little over 4 minutes and finish just when it started feeling hard (Damn you, SSST!).

There are a lot of people who post here who do things I find amazing and hard to imagine myself ever doing (@Harald Motz is just the first to come to mind).

I also often see people post something like, "I can do x, but I'm struggling with y," when I can do y easily, but can't come close to doing x (and sometimes I've never come close to doing either).
 
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One thing to remember is that the original VWC workloads for 15:15 were 50 sets. Kenneth bumped that up to 80 not too far after it came out ( for reasons I can't remember) but once I did 80 sets I had no desire to do it again. 25 min standing in one spot was quite enough for me ;)
 
One thing to remember is that the original VWC workloads for 15:15 were 50 sets. Kenneth bumped that up to 80 not too far after it came out ( for reasons I can't remember) but once I did 80 sets I had no desire to do it again. 25 min standing in one spot was quite enough for me ;)

50 sounds good.. After going through 7 then 8 reps to 80 sets in fairly short order I've stayed with the 8 rep scheme looking to solidify gains alternating 40, 60 and 80 sets. Since the weather got hot I haven't pushed past 60, I hit a 60 set WO on Mon and thought about 80, then sanity took over as I remembered the VWC hangover after pushing too hard in the heat.. Maybe I'm getting smarter in my old age :p
 
448 snatches with 24 kg? That´s amazing.
Steve that is amazing, KJ describes the young world class wrestler doing 80 sets with 24k routinely after a wrestling training session, 64 sets is an incredible fitness and strength achievement for anyone and as yet I've heard of no one other than you who came close to that level of fitness, hat's off to you brother! I think I kind of know what it takes.. no, scratch that, I still have no idea what it takes to achieve what you have done
 
I would venture to say the recovery cost of WVC is higher for the same volume of work because it's so glycolytic, but I can't cite any proof of that.
@Bret S. I hope you don't mind me posting this over here, but I didn't want to potentially hijack Sean M's thread with my question and this seems like a good VWC thread...

@Anna C Wouldn't the process of expanding your ability to handle lactate and broadly expanding your aerobic base by periodizing VWC (or something like it) enhance your transition to more A+A as Bret is doing? I may be thinking about this all wrong, but that's kinda been stuck in my head since I started weaving it into my own training. I noticed that in the little time I've done it, my general work capacity for activities of daily living has expanded greatly. Perhaps it's the S&S work as well or just newbie gains because I haven't done a program like this before...

@Bret S. Do you feel "the burn" and out of breath, i.e., subjective experience identified with glycolytic training (80x8 @16kg for you currently)? Perhaps because of my weight and volume 60x7 @12kg so far, I don't ever feel the burn or gulping for air. The biggest thing I notice is power production will start to drop and I have to put extra effort and focus to maintain it.
 
Anna will answer this better than I but wanted to comment;

Wouldn't the process of expanding your ability to handle lactate and broadly expanding your aerobic base by periodizing VWC (or something like it) enhance your transition to more A+A as Bret is doing?

Yes, it can but the issue is at what cost? It's no different than any other HIIT. Anything works for six weeks. Some folks will be able to get through it longer. But most will see the effects of giving their mitochondria an acid bath eventually.

I noticed that in the little time I've done it, my general work capacity for activities of daily living has expanded greatly. Perhaps it's the S&S work as well or just newbie gains because I haven't done a program like this before...

Hard to say, I'm curious what outcome VWC can achieve. But as far as work capacity, when you got A+A folks doing 50 plus sets of 5 in a little over an hour with the 32 or heavier it's tough to say they don't have work capacity.

Perhaps because of my weight and volume 60x7 @12kg so far, I don't ever feel the burn or gulping for air. The biggest thing I notice is power production will start to drop and I have to put extra effort and focus to maintain it.

Could be a lot of reasons for this. If you tested correctly for what bell and reps to start with, I'm not sure. Maybe you need to be doing 8 reps with a 12K to get the benefit or maybe 7 with the 16K. I believe once you see power production beginning to drop then that's it for the day.

How close to your Max HR are you getting to during a session?
 
@Anna C Wouldn't the process of expanding your ability to handle lactate and broadly expanding your aerobic base by periodizing VWC (or something like it) enhance your transition to more A+A as Bret is doing? I may be thinking about this all wrong, but that's kinda been stuck in my head since I started weaving it into my own training. I noticed that in the little time I've done it, my general work capacity for activities of daily living has expanded greatly. Perhaps it's the S&S work as well or just newbie gains because I haven't done a program like this before...

I'm sure it will help. Building endurance of the muscles, etc. But light snatches only do so much to prepare for heavy snatches. As for lactate and work capacity... well, I'm theorizing here... but I would think that VWC increases your lactate threshold, which is your ability to sustain performance at a higher level of glycolysis and blood lactate levels. That is a different thing than building an aerobic base and building your ability to clear lactate, which A+A will do.
 
Anna will answer this better than I but wanted to comment;



Yes, it can but the issue is at what cost? It's no different than any other HIIT. Anything works for six weeks. Some folks will be able to get through it longer. But most will see the effects of giving their mitochondria an acid bath eventually.



Hard to say, I'm curious what outcome VWC can achieve. But as far as work capacity, when you got A+A folks doing 50 plus sets of 5 in a little over an hour with the 32 or heavier it's tough to say they don't have work capacity.



Could be a lot of reasons for this. If you tested correctly for what bell and reps to start with, I'm not sure. Maybe you need to be doing 8 reps with a 12K to get the benefit or maybe 7 with the 16K. I believe once you see power production beginning to drop then that's it for the day.

How close to your Max HR are you getting to during a session?
I'm really not sure; I don't use an HR monitor. 220-41=179. If I were to make a stab, I'd guess it's in the 150s. I was talking to a friend whose done the protocol and he suggested I retest and perhaps jump to the 16kg. Or stay at 12kg and jump up to 8 reps per set. He's done both the 15:15 and 36:36 protocols before and said the "magic" happens on the second one.

I'll be honest, part of what appeals to me about the program is that it's completely different than what I've been doing for the last several months.
 
I'm really not sure; I don't use an HR monitor. 220-41=179. If I were to make a stab, I'd guess it's in the 150s. I was talking to a friend whose done the protocol and he suggested I retest and perhaps jump to the 16kg. Or stay at 12kg and jump up to 8 reps per set. He's done both the 15:15 and 36:36 protocols before and said the "magic" happens on the second one.

I'll be honest, part of what appeals to me about the program is that it's completely different than what I've been doing for the last several months.
220-age is notoriously inaccurate for calculating HRmax

The bad news is that you really need to do a stress test to know for sure.

The good news is that unless you are competing in the Olympics (or similar) is that it probably doesn't matter too much. Even more so if you aren't using a monitor...
 
@Bret S. Do you feel "the burn" and out of breath, i.e., subjective experience identified with glycolytic training (80x8 @16kg for you currently)? Perhaps because of my weight and volume 60x7 @12kg so far, I don't ever feel the burn or gulping for air. The biggest thing I notice is power production will start to drop and I have to put extra effort and focus to maintain it.
Good question Ryan, While doing VWC using 16k x 8 x 80 sets I don't ever recall a 'burn' feeling, I've done it twice with 8 reps and several times with 7 reps. As I understand it KJ chose the snatch for its quick power burst to drive up HR and also because of the distance the bell travels. I believe the TUT while doing relatively light snatches is pretty low, it's quick, intense effort but is truly just a flash, then after lockout I actively pull the bell down (minimal effort here) and the muscles begin engagement to counter the overspeed eccentric near the bottom, then I wait until the bell finishes it's momentum. When I feel the bell resistance fade I again thrust hips forward and give a quick yank around belt height and enjoy the break as it ascends and during lockout. From here the sequence repeats as I work on perfect timing and max explosiveness coming out of the hole.
I'm sure lactate builds up as the sets increase but while you're snatching the body is becoming more efficient at clearing, then you get a nice break of around 12 seconds before the next set.

Yes, it can but the issue is at what cost? It's no different than any other HIIT. Anything works for six weeks. Some folks will be able to get through it longer. But most will see the effects of giving their mitochondria an acid bath eventually.

Comparing VWC to HIIT, I believe from what I stated above there is no 'acid bath' taking place due to the short duration and pulsing nature of the snatch itself coupled with the same pulsing nature of the sets themselves. Traditional HIIT would concentrate lactate to a much higher degree, according to KJ there is an increase in mitochondrial density doing his protocol rather than the reverse.
 
I'm sure it will help. Building endurance of the muscles, etc. But light snatches only do so much to prepare for heavy snatches. As for lactate and work capacity... well, I'm theorizing here... but I would think that VWC increases your lactate threshold, which is your ability to sustain performance at a higher level of glycolysis and blood lactate levels. That is a different thing than building an aerobic base and building your ability to clear lactate, which A+A will do.

From the VWC book here are some effects:

-Increased oxygen fraction
-Decreased blood pressure
-Decreased O2 consumption at sub-max exercise level
-Increased O2 consumption ar max exercise level
-Increased heart volume and weight
-Increased baroreceptor sensitivity
-Increased compliance
-Increased capillary density of the heart
-Eccentric hypertrophy of the heart
-Concentric hypertrophy of the heart (in this case good)
-Increased left ventricle (end diastolic volume)
-Increased power in the contractile muscle fibers of the heart
-Increased stroke volume during rest, sub-max and max exercise
-Decreased heart rate during rest, sub-max and max exercise
-Increased volume of blood flow per minute during max exercise

Respiration
-Increased endurance and strength of respiratory muscles
-Decreased ventilation at submax exercise intensity
-Increased ventilation at max exercise intensity
-Increased rate of O2 transport from lungs to bloodstream

Metabolite tolerance ability ('clear lactate') is one of the legs of his tripod of conditioning, another is lactate production ability followed by O2 uptake ability. Not necessarily in that order.
 
Nice list, and I would tend to believe that those things are true. I would also tend to believe they would be true from CrossFit metcons. ;)

Always things to consider when seeing a list of benefits of a certain type of training -- 1) How long-lasting are the adaptations? (do they revert back realatively quickly to baseline once you stop doing this type of training?) and 2) What is the cost, or downside? (Of course that wouldn't be listed in promotional material.)

Not trying to talk it down... just being devil's advocate.

A similar list relative to A+A would be shorter, I think. In general I would say the A+A adaptations are longer-lasting and have less cost.
 
Nice list, and I would tend to believe that those things are true. I would also tend to believe they would be true from CrossFit metcons. ;)

Always things to consider when seeing a list of benefits of a certain type of training -- 1) How long-lasting are the adaptations? (do they revert back realatively quickly to baseline once you stop doing this type of training?) and 2) What is the cost, or downside? (Of course that wouldn't be listed in promotional material.)

Not trying to talk it down... just being devil's advocate.

A similar list relative to A+A would be shorter, I think. In general I would say the A+A adaptations are longer-lasting and have less cost.

As you know I'm using VWC as a segway into A+A. What's interesting is the amount of resistance and sometimes negativity I'm encountering toward the program.

Seems there are many who opine and/or are somehow biased against it that haven't done the program or in some cases even read the book. I have no vested interest in the program, rather I'm using it for my main purpose and am happily enjoying the other unexpected benefits that come with it.

It's definitely a learning experience for me both in doing the program and often having to defend what I'm doing. I can't recall another program discussed on the forum which receives so many jabs. I could see it happening if a large number of people had done the protocol or at least part of it and didn't like it for some reason or another, but the opinions in the negative column by those who don't really know what the program entails I find rather puzzling.
My misunderstanding of the A+A protocol comes from my own perception of it gained thru what info I could dig up on the forum, as yet there is no book for us on the outer fringes to reference. There is no literature to compare to something like VWC which is well documented. I know Al does podcasts and mentors people in the protocol and that's great, I also acknowledge there is quite a bit of practical experience documented and from what I can tell the basic structure isn't complicated which I like. I also like the fact that Al guides but doesn't micro manage, rather he lets people figure it out thru experience and recording of results. From what I can see I really love the program as it's laid out.
I'm not sure it's fair to compare VWC to HIIT or CF metcons as that's not even close to the basis for KJ's work as I understand it. I continue going over the book but am by no means an authority on the subject. I would like to see the program given a fair shake though in terms of people reading the book and implementing the protocol.
As far as comparing results that 'last', first you would have to precisely define what parameters you're comparing and then back it up with some sort of testing. Comparing VWC to A+A is apples and oranges as VWC is primarily 'aerobic enhancement' vs 'work capacity with aerobic benefits'.
Hoping this doesn't come off the wrong way as I'm just trying to understand the dynamics I'm encountering during this discussion. :)
 
Good points, @Bret S. ... and you're right, myself and others are taking jabs at VWC to some degree, I would say mostly because it is such a great illustration of how the same exercise - kettlebell snatches - can be utilized SO differently in terms of training objectives and outcomes. In the current SF environment of "anti-glycolytic training", it seems to be the polar opposite. And yet, it is effective, I don't deny that. It's a very useful learning tool for discussion purposes. And you are a good sport. :) So thank you for that.

And yes, perhaps not fair to compare to CF metcons, which actually vary quite a bit themselves so it's hard to characterize them all in one fell swoop.

When I started snatches for A+A I really had to change my approach to the snatch. Having learned it for SFG prep, I thought of it mainly as a conditioning tool. The goal was 100 in 5 minutes with a snatch test sized kettlebell. I didn't think of it as "light" because it was plenty heavy for me at the time. It was a muscular challenge in addition to a cardiovascular/metabolic challenge. But soon after training for A+A, 16 kg was light, as I learned to master the heavy snatch (24 kg for 5,000 or more reps, 28 kg for a few dozen, and even the 32 kg for a handful). First I had to learn to snatch, one quality rep at a time. And part of that was un-learning what I had learned with my "conditioning snatches."

So there's much to discuss regarding the snatch itself, but also much to discuss regarding energy systems and overall training philosophies. Again, thanks for sharing your experiences because it really is interesting to discuss.

I do have some testing results I'll share... but relates also this thread, so I'll put them there: Volume swings or snatches?

And, I'm not opposed to trying VWC someday. :)
 
Regardless of the opinions expressed, I highly appreciate the fact that everyone has stuck to the S1 community value of being ladies and gentlemen.

Both @Anna C and @Bret S. bring up good points. The conversations on this thread, plus the ones on Sean M's thread had me waffling back and forth on dropping VWC and shift straight to A+A for snatch work. However...

I usually follow the general trend in whatever group I'm in but perhaps in the interests of providing a counterpoint of the current training climate, I can do my own n=1 trend with VWC. I'll do a baseline snatch test and VO2M cadence/weight test now, work through the protocols in the book and get a baseline test every 6 weeks. I'll continue with S&S for the strength component. I'll keep my log up to date along with any subjective experiences, durability issues, etc...

Hopefully another n=1 could be useful.
 
Nice list, and I would tend to believe that those things are true. I would also tend to believe they would be true from CrossFit metcons. ;)

Always things to consider when seeing a list of benefits of a certain type of training -- 1) How long-lasting are the adaptations? (do they revert back realatively quickly to baseline once you stop doing this type of training?) and 2) What is the cost, or downside? (Of course that wouldn't be listed in promotional material.)

Not trying to talk it down... just being devil's advocate.

A similar list relative to A+A would be shorter, I think. In general I would say the A+A adaptations are longer-lasting and have less cost.

I've been curious about this. If A&A stands on the two feet (primarily) of Phosphagen system and aerobic fitness, detraining should hit the aerobic aspect pretty hard.

The limit strength should hold up, but the mitochondrial density (as I understand it) will begin to decline pretty rapidly, the CV adaptations will stick around a lot longer. The increased mitochondria seems to be always fairly quick to shrink down to whatever the current level of use.

I'd imagine going from A&A to a program of mostly phosphagen with supplemental HIIT to keep mitochondrial density gains could be another way to go if training time is a factor.

Am not sure if anyone has tested this.
 
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Comparing VWC to HIIT, I believe from what I stated above there is no 'acid bath' taking place due to the short duration and pulsing nature of the snatch itself coupled with the same pulsing nature of the sets themselves. Traditional HIIT would concentrate lactate to a much higher degree, according to KJ there is an increase in mitochondrial density doing his protocol rather than the reverse.

To be fair, there is a big difference between HIIT as it should be done, and butt-whacking metcons that are meant to fill a different role and typically done as a circuit.

There is no acid bath associated with HIIT, and no one has ever shown even metcons to produce such an effect, or at least one that is anything but beneficially stimulating to the mitochondria in healthy persons under any sort of typical training regimen.

I'd say no question this type of training (metcon) requires longer rest between sessions or used in a program of rotating strategies to give the muscles ample time to recover.
 
I'd imagine going from A&A to a program of mostly phosphagen with supplemental HIIT to keep mitochondrial density gains could be another way to go.

Am not sure if anyone has tested this.

Sounds like a test worthy of some interest. Thanks for this as it's precisely the type of questions and dialogue I was hoping for when starting this thread
 
To whomever, I hope no one has taken any of my comments regarding VWC as bias against it. I have no horse in such a race.

I will play the devil's advocate and ask questions. I've even done this with Al and A+A. I don't have the knowledge that many of you have, therefore it's always necessary to ask questions.
 
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