Kettlebell VWC questions
- Thread starter Bret S.
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Yes it's pretty fascinating. The Airdyne, like the kettlebell, can produce very different responses (and logically, adaptations) depending on how you use it. I think the important things are, like most training, 1) do something (because something is always better than nothing, and that's how you learn), 2) be safe, 3) progress, 4) use common sense, 5) keep data, 6) follow some proven/studied protocols while doing all the other things. In that order. 
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Yes it's pretty fascinating. The Airdyne, like the kettlebell, can produce very different responses (and logically, adaptations) depending on how you use it. I think the important things are, like most training, 1) do something (because something is always better than nothing, and that's how you learn), 2) be safe, 3) progress, 4) use common sense, 5) keep data, 6) follow some proven/studied protocols while doing all the other things. In that order.
You forgot have fun
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
That's good CNS training, feels like that for me with MA
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Next thing you know, you'll be yelling and smacking yourself before a set....
..Seriously, resistance training is not a whole lot different- you develop an instinct and it is triggered by perception.
Let's go!
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Next thing you know, you'll be yelling and smacking yourself before a set....
Seriously, resistance training is not a whole lot different- you develop an instinct and it is triggered by perception.
Let's go!
Yesss Psyching up in a controlled manner without showing it is a skill worthy of consistent practice, I've always thought the best MA's perfect this skill while controlling emotions. Strong and well controlled spirit
Sorry to turn this into "Anna's HR thread" lately but wanted to share one more from this morning. Basically a trial run of Plan 060 from Strong Endurance.
This is 20 minutes of kettlebell snatches with 12kg, 5 every 30 sec for 200 total. It's almost exactly the same scheme as the VWC session I did Friday, except that instead of 8 fast snatches in each work set, I was doing 5 relaxed pace snatches. These took about 13-14 seconds, then rest until the next :30 and snatch again with the other hand, just like VWC. HR did not get nearly as high, effort felt very aerobic, nose breathing the whole time. HR recovers from 138 back down to 93 in 1 min 10 sec.
I remember Pavel saying at the Strong Endurance seminar (I'm paraphrasing, so hopefully it's close to accurate) that people think it's good if the HR stays elevated after HIIT etc... but it's really your body trying to clean up the metabolic mess that you've created. I'm sure there's some truth to that.
I plan to keep doing this one a 3x/wk for a while according to the plan's progression and see what happens. I'm sure it's not doing much for VO2 max as VWC does, but I think it will be good for aerobic development. Like a light MAF jog. My MAF HR is 130 or 135, depending on how I do the formula adjustments. So this seems about right. Also was about right for the talk test.
This is 20 minutes of kettlebell snatches with 12kg, 5 every 30 sec for 200 total. It's almost exactly the same scheme as the VWC session I did Friday, except that instead of 8 fast snatches in each work set, I was doing 5 relaxed pace snatches. These took about 13-14 seconds, then rest until the next :30 and snatch again with the other hand, just like VWC. HR did not get nearly as high, effort felt very aerobic, nose breathing the whole time. HR recovers from 138 back down to 93 in 1 min 10 sec.
I remember Pavel saying at the Strong Endurance seminar (I'm paraphrasing, so hopefully it's close to accurate) that people think it's good if the HR stays elevated after HIIT etc... but it's really your body trying to clean up the metabolic mess that you've created. I'm sure there's some truth to that.
I plan to keep doing this one a 3x/wk for a while according to the plan's progression and see what happens. I'm sure it's not doing much for VO2 max as VWC does, but I think it will be good for aerobic development. Like a light MAF jog. My MAF HR is 130 or 135, depending on how I do the formula adjustments. So this seems about right. Also was about right for the talk test.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
One of the things I appreciate re my offbeat "Hobo" exercises especially the latest versions - every set is a challenge, mentally and physically. This transfers to an amount of confidence doing unprogrammed exertion that I just didn't have before to the same extent.
Very similar to sparring where you turn off and tune in - perform rather than think about it.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Please feel free to continue, this is the spirit and discussion which we all learn from
so thank youI've always thought in these terms, that's the idea behind the 'kettlebell aerobic strategies' thread, I think of it as the heart 'pumping down' while cleaning and rejuvinating muscle and CNS for the next effort
Actually I like this template very much, as I've said before MVO2 improvement is not my 1st priority (or even 2nd for that matter) and I believe doing 200 snatches in 20 mins vs 320 in 20 mins will create some different CVS effects but would still be in line with reaching my goals.
Going 32 mins to get to 320 snatches would be less taxing, it's the density that catches up to you in a VWC session, and it's much less demanding on the CNS which is high in VWC for me. The summer heat has made the sessions very difficult, the last 5-6 sessions have all been 40 sets except one (60 sets). My energy level has dropped so I'm resting and recuperating while planning training schedule adjustments.
Robert Noftz
Level 5 Valued Member
I wouldn't worry about that Anna,
The H10, along with the Beat and Flow apps are great training tools. You share a lot of useful information on this forum.
Today I recorded a 30/90 HIIT session performed on the Airdyne. There is about a 5 minute warm up with about 9:30 of cool down. The 30 second high intensity sessions were for as hard as I could push myself and the 90 second recovery intervals were light steady peddling. I can understand why none of the gyms I have ever attended had any airbikes. They probably wouldn't want me there, or anyone else for that matter, making the agonizing noises that I made. Maybe everyone doesn't do this but I even cursed a few times.
I did notice of course that I couldn't do anywhere near the same intensity on the last few intervals as I could on the first one or two. This was only my second 30/90 session and it felt brutal. After the first couple of intervals my heart rate didn't go below 90% during the recovery sessions.
One question I have is about the difference between doing a session with an exercise bike or Airdyne and doing the VWC is that with the VWC the snatching activity is not continued during the recovery period. With some kind of ergometer the activity can be continued in a light manner which keeps the muscles working in the same movement pattern. I wonder if that can lead to greater adaptations in the cardiovascular system?
Robert, your Airdyne experience looks exactly like mine. Quite intense, isn't it? Actually your work interval of 30 sec is longer than I've done (20 sec).
As to the questions of greater adaptation in the cardiovascular system in Airdyne HIIT vs. VWC... I don't know. Regarding recovery period, I think in both cases, in the rest interval the goal is to keep blood flowing and allow the working muscles to recover and recharge. Regarding effectiveness, my gut feeling is that the HIIT on the Airdyne is more effective for the time spent, because it's more intense and producing an overall max demand on all the body's energy systems. The VWC is an ongoing high demand, but sustainable for 50% of the time during the session, as opposed to 25% or less of the time with the Airdyne. I see a spectrum with Airdyne HIIT at one end (short and effective), walking or other low-level LSD at the other (effective but only if long), and VWC somewhere in the middle. The questions that remain in my mind are related to how the more intense protocols like Airdyne HIIT and VWC affect the aerobic system, specifically which of the adaptations that occur when working strictly in the aerobic range can be affected, and which are not.
As to the questions of greater adaptation in the cardiovascular system in Airdyne HIIT vs. VWC... I don't know. Regarding recovery period, I think in both cases, in the rest interval the goal is to keep blood flowing and allow the working muscles to recover and recharge. Regarding effectiveness, my gut feeling is that the HIIT on the Airdyne is more effective for the time spent, because it's more intense and producing an overall max demand on all the body's energy systems. The VWC is an ongoing high demand, but sustainable for 50% of the time during the session, as opposed to 25% or less of the time with the Airdyne. I see a spectrum with Airdyne HIIT at one end (short and effective), walking or other low-level LSD at the other (effective but only if long), and VWC somewhere in the middle. The questions that remain in my mind are related to how the more intense protocols like Airdyne HIIT and VWC affect the aerobic system, specifically which of the adaptations that occur when working strictly in the aerobic range can be affected, and which are not.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Nice work Robert, While pondering your question I came up with what the difference would be in my estimation, after the all out 30 second sprint the lactate build-up in the legs would be substantial, my legs would be very pumped so consequently you would need to keep the light pedaling going to help clear metabolites and replenish for the next effort, not doing so would likely allow lactate to pool for way too long and would ultimately hurt performance in the subsequent sets.
Doing VWC creates lactate as well but in smaller amounts so as you rest between sets the aerobic system is working to clear lactate etc. the actual rest time is around 12 seconds when accounting for picking up and setting down the bell and the 15 second work set.
It would be hard to calculate or even define 'greater adaptations' of the CVS when comparing HIIT to VWC. I will guess the LV heart chamber during a VWC session is coaxed into expansion over a longer period of time and therefore yields different results from a 5 minute HIIT effort. During the snatches of VWC there is also valsalvic pressure pulsing with each snatch which would elicit a thickening or strengthening of the heart wall, I'm not sure if the same effects would come from pedaling all out on the Airdyne. Maybe @Anna C would have something on this? And finally the full body involvement of VWC snatching vs full body on the Airdyne are apples and oranges with each generating their own respective adaptive responses.
So to answer your question I would say, if you are able, to give VWC a try and make your own comparison. One thing I've learned through all this 'aerobic' experimentation is that there are really very few clear answers to any of it. Possibly with the exception of LED, which I believe is an essential part of any aerobic training strategy.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
@Robert Noftz
Looking at the HR chart you posted got me thinking of another experiment, say you warm up and HR is around 100 bpm and you pedal in an all out effort sufficient to drive the HR into the red zone (pedaling time TBD), then rest pedaling easily until the HR returns to around 110 so repeating this until fatigue begins to set in. I would imagine this pulse type training which allows the heart to fully 'pump down' between efforts would yield some fantastic heart health benefits while being easier in the 'metabolic cost' of the effort as compared to traditional HIIT 5 min duration training.
Looking at the HR chart you posted got me thinking of another experiment, say you warm up and HR is around 100 bpm and you pedal in an all out effort sufficient to drive the HR into the red zone (pedaling time TBD), then rest pedaling easily until the HR returns to around 110 so repeating this until fatigue begins to set in. I would imagine this pulse type training which allows the heart to fully 'pump down' between efforts would yield some fantastic heart health benefits while being easier in the 'metabolic cost' of the effort as compared to traditional HIIT 5 min duration training.
No input from me on this... I don't know or understand anything about specific heart adaptations from different exercise types. My general belief (FWIW) is that if we exercise in a variety of ways, the heart will support us in these endeavors and we'll tend to avoid heart-specific health problems. So I don't worry too much about the heart as a separate component. I do think the heart rate in various states (resting, aerobic, LT, max) is very helpful in training, but not so much because of the heart itself - more as an overall indicator of systemic things going on in the body.
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