Way to tell when power drops in swings; any guesses?

jca17

More than 300 posts
I used a HRM for a while with my swings, but eventually came back to just loving the mindfulness and simplicity of going by feel. Al Ciampa pointed out that it does work for the protocols, but for most people its probably not worth the complication.
However, if I were to take up more traditional steady state cardio (running, rowing, etc) in a training program, I would definitely use one.

So also with this tech. In certain programs for certain goals, its sounds like an awesome option.
For most programs and most goals, nice to have, but essentially exactly that.
I like recording my sessions on paper and keeping track of sensations and details of the session, things like nutrition that day or the day before, reflection on technique from the session, etc.
Its great to have tech measure the session for you, but I still like recording it.
I'm not "tech averse" in principle, but in practice I am.
I'm also a software developer in Silicon Valley.
Go figure.
 

KIWI5

More than 300 posts
I guess I'm just too 'old' (at 51) to see the value in this device! LOL! As I mentioned, many posts prior- the marketing of this tool (on this thread) has not been....how shall I put this diplomatically...'optimal'. But, as I've stated - it's a neat gadget that certainly has a niche value. If I was trying to set a point of difference for my clients- I would absolutely buy it. I would suggest that marketing your product by stating that certain demographics 'do not understand the value' is not a best practice sales technique. I say this with a smile on my face. 'Cause I'm old and wise.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
As with any widget, I'd like to see some sort of data to conclude a group using it gets better outcome than one using some other method.

I'm sure its useful and probably worth the $ if you are already into using tech w/ your training, esp at the higher levels of competition.

Would be nice if it could be calibrated to run on the KB, or your leg etc, or if a conversion was available to do this manually. Limiting it to utility only w/ swings is a no-starter from the get-go. The fact it has to be worn on the arm has me wonder what the deviation is between someone with short arms and someone with longer arms.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I would just prefer to keep the discussion to the merits of the tech itself, and where it may be useful, rather than debatable arguments about generational traits.
I'm with you on that. Thanks.

-S-
 

Bret S.

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
The fact it has to be worn on the arm has me wonder what the deviation is between someone with short arms and someone with longer arms.
Ha, I was wondering the same thing.. Would be nice to be able to make adjustments by distance from the fulcrum point. It would seem to be a little more accurate at 36" vs. 20"? Dunno, just the 'real world' contractor in me asking questions..
 

ClaudeR

Triple-Digit Post Count
@Chapman
Great to have you here, and very good information!

I have a few questions around the data ecosystem and integration into other platforms...
In short, are there any plans to do some integration? Both software level (export full sessions into sporttracks, training peaks etc) and also hardware level (for example bluetooth/ant+ connectivity, garmin CIQ fields/app integration or similar)?
Since you mention HR, any plans to incorporate HR into the data (via bluetooth/ant+ or hardware onboard sensor)?

As a (weekend warrior) triathlete who does a lot of strength work also both with barbells and kettlebells I track a lot of things but quantifying strength and power work into training load etc is currently a huge hassle (as you pointed out, there are currently no objective measures available other than VBT)...
Sportracks have just announced to build up a framework of supporting custom data and others will certainly follow suit. Having VBT together with HR (and possibly other markers) integrated into overall performance monitoring would make the PUSH device extremely more useful

Thanks!
Claude
 

wespom9

More than 500 posts
Certified Instructor
Hey wespom9,
The PUSH band is used by many pro-teams and their affiliates across MLB, NCAA schools and private baseball facilities. While they all have different uses, from using free movement to measure peak throwing velocity to measuring jumps using reactive strength index for daily readiness, the biggest usage I see is the ability to quantify, train and chase speed without worrying about max loads, putting on size or fatiguing guys. We have whats called a velocity loss cutoff feature where you can set the app to notify you when you have dropped below a certain percentage of your first or best rep. This is an easy way to autoregulate your training and stay out of unnecessary fatigue, say in season, during try-out/evaluation or during a heavy training camp. I wrote a blog post on the topic here: Velocity Loss Cutoff - The Most Actionable VBT Metric For Coaches and Athletes

Baseball players tend to do a lot of medball training so the second most popular usage I see is quantifying speed and power. What we have seen is players tending to use lighter medball than you would expect as they are producing higher power than with a heavier medball.

The leader in VBT style training for baseball is driveline (Kyle Boddy): Homepage
Check them out they are a wealth of knowledge.
Thanks! The Velocity Loss Cutoff feature piques my interest. I'm pretty familiar with Kyle Boddy/Driveline and their throwing programs as we have experimented with the methods with our older, more developed athletes, but am definitely in the dark on their tech use. I knew they calculated spin rates and what not but didn't realize they also use VBT. Will take your advice and check it out. We do a ton of medball work in our facility as well. It seems like it would definitely be interesting to assess those lifts.

I found it endlessly fascinating watching the video on your blog post you linked (Velocity Loss Cutoff - The Most Actionable VBT Metric For Coaches and Athletes) that the man said "if you can't currently measure, assume half the reps before velocity declines. So 3 reps at 6RM, 5 reps at 10RM". This is almost exactly Pavel's princples for strength - The Origins of StrongFirst Programming: The Soviet System | StrongFirst
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
I think it is a mistake to phrase this as a tech averse vs tech adopter issue. This is a relevant vs non-relevant issue, or for many a cost-effective vs a non-cost effective issue. To suggest that "the older generation" is tech averse is absurd. Tech is not new; this tech is new. The "older generation" may not actually be "tech averse", but more likely "tech common sense". They are old enough to have made the mistake of adopting many of "the next big things", only to find them no better than old things, just more expensive, at least in the first years after their introduction.
I was making an observation reading the thread as an outsider, as it was very easy to see the two sides clearly. As someone who has professionally coached S&C at every age and stage over the last 15 years, it is the same trend I have seen in the industry. Since joining PUSH it is something we see all of the time in the professional S&C world. It is not a bad thing nor meant to offend, my apologies if it came off that way. Again, nothing I said is stopping people from continuing to do things they have always done it. I do agree typically things that are new need time for refinement and to maximize utility. But everything has to start somewhere. Fortunately, PUSH has been around for 5 years mainstream VBT tech and methods for 10. The space is pretty mature at this point, SF is just the first to bring it to the KB space. They did wait until the 2.0 version came out. In all honesty, the 1.0 version was that piece of tech that had a lot of hiccups and needed a lot of work. As a coach it didn't work the way I wanted it to. I personally didn't start using PUSH regularly with my olympic athletes until the 2.0 came out.

The cost piece I can completely understand. That was going to be my second post. What PUSH has done is bring technology that was $2K-10K to a price point that is sub $300, removing a large barrier to entry. Hopefully over time that will come down even further, as cost will always be a barrier for some. Even as a jump testing tool alone, aside from chalk on a wall (which can grossly estimate at zero cost), a vertec costs $550 and a jump mat cost around the same, with neither giving you nearly as much resolution or information. We do consider it a pocket lab as it can do a lot more than just measure swings. If only for an individuals swings, yes it may be expensive and not for you. But the type of people I have met who invest in an SF course, which is on the higher end of the price point for courses, seem to be coaching, teaching or educating others, and could find a lot of extra utility out of such a tool. Hopefully the SF early adopters can help further develop additional meaningful and actionable use cases, specifically for KB and SF methodologies.

Issue number one: the insinuation that all coaches and athletes in the cycling/endurance world have adopted the power meter...well, Brett Sutton, who has coached and is coaching Olympic and world champions and record holders, disagrees. He is on record as recommending against it. As for velocity based training, the sprint coaches at Altis, who have experimented with it, have found it to be not so useful as to justify the expense in most situations (see Jason Hettler interview on Pacey Performance Podcast, number 175, for instance).
Brett Sutton is definitely of the far minority. There will always be a few coaches who do things differently. There will always be people who disagree with the trends and directions things are going. There are many roads to the same destination. Some less travelled, some moreso. We can agree to disagree on this one. I currently train professional age group athletes in distance running, triathlon, and stand up paddleboard. I personally mountain bike and flatwater kayak. The majority across all endurance sports I am exposed to do use internal and external monitoring even at the weekend warrior level.

I have been to Altis, Altis has PUSH bands. The gentleman who was leading the project left to become a head track coach at an NCAA school. When he left no one picked up the project. It also wasn't the greatest fit at the time with their workflow because the old band 1.0 didn't have bar mode and multi-athlete use case. Altis has brought in Bryan Mann to speak on VBT at one of their apprentice coach programs. Altis uses other speed and power tech daily such as the 1080 motion and keiser pneumatic machines which are far more costly than PUSH bands, although serve very niche functions. Jason is a great coach whom I respect, and as I said its not for everyone. I know USATF, Athletics Canada, Athletics China all use VBT tech so it is well used in the track and field space.
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
@Chapman
Great to have you here, and very good information!

I have a few questions around the data ecosystem and integration into other platforms...
In short, are there any plans to do some integration? Both software level (export full sessions into sporttracks, training peaks etc) and also hardware level (for example bluetooth/ant+ connectivity, garmin CIQ fields/app integration or similar)?
Since you mention HR, any plans to incorporate HR into the data (via bluetooth/ant+ or hardware onboard sensor)?

As a (weekend warrior) triathlete who does a lot of strength work also both with barbells and kettlebells I track a lot of things but quantifying strength and power work into training load etc is currently a huge hassle (as you pointed out, there are currently no objective measures available other than VBT)...
Sportracks have just announced to build up a framework of supporting custom data and others will certainly follow suit. Having VBT together with HR (and possibly other markers) integrated into overall performance monitoring would make the PUSH device extremely more useful

Thanks!
Claude
We currently do have software called the push portal where you can export your data. We have API's with other data management systems such as kinduct, smartabase and coachmeplus. A lot of the athletes I train use training peaks for their endurance work. It is something we have explored integrating but realistically cannot look at it until end of summer. I will definitely bring it up again.

We used to have the ability to bring HR into our app. This was 3 years ago and at the time it wasn't used. But we are getting a lot of requests lately so we will for sure be bringing it back. Any bluetooth HR monitor we can bring in the signal very easy. Stay tuned as this will be here by end of 2018. As for ant+ I am not sure, I would have to talk to our hardware team and get back to you. I will also check out sportracks that is one I am unfamiliar with.

Historically strength work has been tracked through volume load (sets x reps x weight) and intensity (%1RM or RPE). What we have done with the PUSH system is automate these so at least you can track them without having to write anything down, do calculations or deal with pen and paper. Any workout done using PUSH all volume load, active time (lifting time) and time under tension is tracked, with sessional RPE's are taken at the end of every session. Further, since we are an accelerometer, we can measure mechanical work since 1) Force = mass x acceleration and 2) Work = Force x Displacement. We measure acceleration directly, input mass, and double integrate acceleration along with gyroscope data to get displacement. This would be a strain measure similar to your TSS score in training peaks. What I am finding with strong endurance protocols is that I can accumulate a lot of work, with minimal volume load, and my RPE is never higher than 6/10. When I do a traditional barbell power workout I sustain much higher volume load and usually 8/10 RPE.

The other measure we are going to add is the ability to add more detailed questionnaires such as the hooper mackinnon in order to get a full subjective picture of what is going on. How the person is feeling day to day can tell a lot, especially paired with internal and external measures.

Appreciate the suggestions, keep 'em coming!
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
Ha, I was wondering the same thing.. Would be nice to be able to make adjustments by distance from the fulcrum point. It would seem to be a little more accurate at 36" vs. 20"? Dunno, just the 'real world' contractor in me asking questions..
There is a triaxial gyroscope in the IMU (inertial motion unit) which measures angular velocity which is degrees per second (think angle measurement), so its constant irrespective of the fulcrum length. If it was only a triaxial accelerometer this would be an issue for sure. We fuse the accel and gyro signals together to get quaternion data which is a very mathematically elegant way to determine the physics properties of the IMU. That being said, you do input your height and weight or your athletes/clients height and weight into the app for any cases where we do have to do anthropometric estimations.

We do have a mode where you can put the band on the bar for barbell work. We did experiment for some time placing the band on the KB with a magnet or a strap. The issue is that it gets in the way during snatches or presses if you place it one position, and if you put it where it doesn't get in the way then it gets in the way during anything where you utilize a rack position. Second, the bell may have movement which the arms do not, which could artificially influence the data. Finally, for push-ups and other bodyweight exercises (which are used in strong endurance protocols), you would have to take the band off the KB and place on your body which would require an on body strap as is. Keeping on the arm was the most feasible spot considering all exericses. For a 033 with switching arms, you do need to move it from one arm to another, but even during a 5/4 with 30 seconds rest there is plenty of time. Perhaps over time and more usage we will find a more optimal placement or a novel way to attach for KB protocols. We are always open to suggestion!
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
I guess I'm just too 'old' (at 51) to see the value in this device! LOL! As I mentioned, many posts prior- the marketing of this tool (on this thread) has not been....how shall I put this diplomatically...'optimal'. But, as I've stated - it's a neat gadget that certainly has a niche value. If I was trying to set a point of difference for my clients- I would absolutely buy it. I would suggest that marketing your product by stating that certain demographics 'do not understand the value' is not a best practice sales technique. I say this with a smile on my face. 'Cause I'm old and wise.
Point taken :). I am not a salesman and would make a poor one at that. I am scientist and coach who makes repeated observations and conclusions based on the information available. I am merely here to help and apologise for anything that has come across as undiplomatic, as that was not my intention.
 

KIWI5

More than 300 posts
No worries! Just trying to provide some feedback. I will be following the tech as it progresses- I may end up having one of these strapped on in the future....
 

Bret S.

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
so its constant irrespective of the fulcrum length
That being said, you do input your height and weight or your athletes/clients height and weight into the app for any cases where we do have to do anthropometric estimations.
From the Wiki:
Anthropometry refers to the measurement of the human individual. An early tool of physical anthropology, it has been used for identification, for the purposes of understanding human physical variation, in paleoanthropology and in various attempts to correlate physical with racial and psychological traits.

Can you clarify this? Are the distances mattering here? Or? Is it something else?

Edit: More questions.. @Chapman

"We did experiment for some time placing the band on the KB with a magnet or a strap. The issue is that it gets in the way during snatches or presses if you place it one position, and if you put it where it doesn't get in the way then it gets in the way during anything where you utilize a rack position. Second, the bell may have movement which the arms do not, which could artificially influence the data."


Seems to me a good place to put it would be directly under the handle and fastened tightly between the two 'posts' of the handle and flush with the top of the bell. Possibly using a combination of specialized straps and a bottom magnet. This way you could place it on different sized bells without issue. At .6" depth there should be plenty of clearance for most bells.

The algorithm could be adjusted for bell movement. Using the snatch as an example let's say a snatch takes approximately 2 seconds to complete, with most of the time being used for transfer from the low to high position and vice versa. I'll guess maybe .4 of the 2 seconds is split between the top and bottom transitions. Could you not filter out the 'noise' of the transitions and still get a good read on velocity?

I use Android on my phone. Are there plans to bring this GUI to platforms other than Apple? I'm not an Apple fan and would bet there are many others in the same camp.

Thanks
 
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Bryant W

Double-Digit Post Count
I was making an observation reading the thread as an outsider, as it was very easy to see the two sides clearly. As someone who has professionally coached S&C at every age and stage over the last 15 years, it is the same trend I have seen in the industry. Since joining PUSH it is something we see all of the time in the professional S&C world. It is not a bad thing nor meant to offend, my apologies if it came off that way. Again, nothing I said is stopping people from continuing to do things they have always done it. I do agree typically things that are new need time for refinement and to maximize utility. But everything has to start somewhere. Fortunately, PUSH has been around for 5 years mainstream VBT tech and methods for 10. The space is pretty mature at this point, SF is just the first to bring it to the KB space. They did wait until the 2.0 version came out. In all honesty, the 1.0 version was that piece of tech that had a lot of hiccups and needed a lot of work. As a coach it didn't work the way I wanted it to. I personally didn't start using PUSH regularly with my olympic athletes until the 2.0 came out.

Brett Sutton is definitely of the far minority. There will always be a few coaches who do things differently. There will always be people who disagree with the trends and directions things are going. There are many roads to the same destination. Some less travelled, some moreso. We can agree to disagree on this one. I currently train professional age group athletes in distance running, triathlon, and stand up paddleboard. I personally mountain bike and flatwater kayak. The majority across all endurance sports I am exposed to do use internal and external monitoring even at the weekend warrior level.

I have been to Altis, Altis has PUSH bands. The gentleman who was leading the project left to become a head track coach at an NCAA school. When he left no one picked up the project. It also wasn't the greatest fit at the time with their workflow because the old band 1.0 didn't have bar mode and multi-athlete use case. Altis has brought in Bryan Mann to speak on VBT at one of their apprentice coach programs. Altis uses other speed and power tech daily such as the 1080 motion and keiser pneumatic machines which are far more costly than PUSH bands, although serve very niche functions. Jason is a great coach whom I respect, and as I said its not for everyone. I know USATF, Athletics Canada, Athletics China all use VBT tech so it is well used in the track and field space.
Thanks for taking the time to write all that. And also, my apologies for writing so much that you felt it necessary to write all that;)!

The main points I was trying to get across in my long-windedness are, more succinctly, that it would be better to just focus on the device itself, and not about generational differences or which elite coaches use it.

The fact that a technology is new does not mean that I should buy it. Nor does it mean I shouldn't buy it. The qualities of the device itself should guide the choice on an individual basis. If I were to adopt all the new technologies in my area of interest, well, then I would probably be purchasing something VBT related, a 1080 sprint, a jump pad, a curved treadmill, and probably a fly-wheel. Probably overkill for a 45 year old non-outlier! Goodbye fall vacation!

I meant it to be a similar point when mentioning places where certain new tech is not being utilized by the elite coaches at certain locations. Not that someone shouldn't use a power meter because Brett Sutton doesn't use it, nor that someone shouldn't use VBT tech because it doesn't play a major role at certain institutions. But that people have great success even without these devices. So let's focus on the device and the individual to see if its a good fit that will provide actionable data. That was my idea, anyway. Apparently rather poorly stated.

It is not a bad thing nor meant to offend, my apologies if it came off that way.
Thank you for the apology, but if my message made you feel you owed me one, then I apologize to you, sir. In my mind my tone felt conversational, I'm sorry if it came across in any other way.

Best regards.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
We do have a mode where you can put the band on the bar for barbell work. We did experiment for some time placing the band on the KB with a magnet or a strap. The issue is that it gets in the way during snatches or presses if you place it one position, and if you put it where it doesn't get in the way then it gets in the way during anything where you utilize a rack position. ... Perhaps over time and more usage we will find a more optimal placement or a novel way to attach for KB protocols. We are always open to suggestion!
How about a kettlebell with a place for the PUSH to fit, something along the lines of the way my HRM snaps into the chest strap?

-S-
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
How about a kettlebell with a place for the PUSH to fit, something along the lines of the way my HRM snaps into the chest strap?

-S-
Our thought here was most gyms and people already have kettlebells. Changing the kettlebell itself would require a kettlebell manufacturer to change their methods of casting (not trivial to my knowledge), and it is not an investment most gyms/coaches/people would likely undertake to replace all of their current KB's just for a spot to put a band. We are thinking of the lowest cost solution to achieve the ability to measure.

We have thought of a strap system similar to HRM where you can snap the band on the bell or the body. Overall we agreed it was more nuisance than the current method (two straps instead of one), however this was with our small sample. As more KB use happens maybe this type of method will be preferred? We will definitely keep all options open and adapt as necessary!
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Chapman, you asked for suggestions. Had you asked for _good_ suggestions, I might not have made mine. :) :)

I could see a kb being manufactured, starting now, with a place for a snap-in product - not everyone would adopt it, of course, but if there were no significant downside, i.e., the casting process wasn't more expensive, and the produce costs wasn't more expensive, it might eventually catch on.

Again, thanks for you participation here.

-S-
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
From the Wiki:
Anthropometry refers to the measurement of the human individual. An early tool of physical anthropology, it has been used for identification, for the purposes of understanding human physical variation, in paleoanthropology and in various attempts to correlate physical with racial and psychological traits.

Can you clarify this? Are the distances mattering here? Or? Is it something else?
Anthropometry is study of measuring the shapes and sized of the human body. We can accurately estimate (enough for our purposes) bone lengths based on height and weight. People fall into a normal distribution with respect to shape and size. Again because we use a gyroscope this is secondary, we can measure the absolute and relative angles the band is at with orientation and angular velocities.

"We did experiment for some time placing the band on the KB with a magnet or a strap. The issue is that it gets in the way during snatches or presses if you place it one position, and if you put it where it doesn't get in the way then it gets in the way during anything where you utilize a rack position. Second, the bell may have movement which the arms do not, which could artificially influence the data."

Seems to me a good place to put it would be directly under the handle and fastened tightly between the two 'posts' of the handle and flush with the top of the bell. Possibly using a combination of specialized straps and a bottom magnet. This way you could place it on different sized bells without issue. At .6" depth there should be plenty of clearance for most bells.
We tried this spot, with pro grade/competition bells it didn't work as the wrist would hit it with larger users in rack position and snatch catch.

The algorithm could be adjusted for bell movement. Using the snatch as an example let's say a snatch takes approximately 2 seconds to complete, with most of the time being used for transfer from the low to high position and vice versa. I'll guess maybe .4 of the 2 seconds is split between the top and bottom transitions. Could you not filter out the 'noise' of the transitions and still get a good read on velocity?
100% we can easily modify the algorithms for the bell and its movement. It was more the fact that a novice user or a bad rep, where say grip or wrists aren't tight, the bell can have extra rotation on the swing (think of the bell flipping towards your face a bit on a swing). This would increase the average velocity and power, but would be a false increase because its the bell and not the user, and due to non-ideal technique. By being on the arm we avoid this, and measure the speed/power the user is creating.

I use Android on my phone. Are there plans to bring this GUI to platforms other than Apple? I'm not an Apple fan and would bet there are many others in the same camp.
We had android 3 years ago. The problem at the time were there was too many different android phones and you had to develop for each differently. Since then Android development has come a long way and the phone offering has pruned quite a bit. We are currently working on android and it is slated for release in 2018 (exact timing TBD).
 

Chapman

Double-Digit Post Count
@Chapman, you asked for suggestions. Had you asked for _good_ suggestions, I might not have made mine. :) :)

I could see a kb being manufactured, starting now, with a place for a snap-in product - not everyone would adopt it, of course, but if there were no significant downside, i.e., the casting process wasn't more expensive, and the produce costs wasn't more expensive, it might eventually catch on.

Again, thanks for you participation here.

-S-
My pleasure! I'm loving the SF philosophies and methodologies the deeper I dig in. I'm incorporating more and moreinto my athletes' trainings. I have been into Pavel's work for some time as my academic supervisors did their Phd's in Stu McGills lab a decade ago when he was working with Pavel. I am really impressed with how well thought out and scientifically backed the strong endurance protocols are, as Craig dove into the underlying physiology in a course we did last month.

Back to the placement, all suggestions are good suggestions so keep 'em coming! Two of my personal bells are Agatsu competition bells and they have an opening to the hollow inside at the bottom. They say the bell keeps its shape better by casting like this (no idea if this is true). Regardless, being able to put the band there would solve the placement issue. The headache then comes when doing pushups or any bodyweight exercise say in a 033, moving from the bell to the body. Since you have to move the band anyways, we still thought the moving arm to arm was the solution with the least overall friction.

We have developed and are testing arm sleeves with pockets for the band which would speed up this process. From our user testing, there are definitely some people that don't like wearing the sleeves, but it cuts the transfer time in half for sure. We are building these more for crossfit style workouts as they seem to prefer the sleeve over the band from our user testing.
 
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