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Nutrition well referenced criticism of low-carb and fasting diets

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Imbalance is the whole problem under my opinion, you tell people to stop eating carbs and you find imbalance in the long term, you tell people to eat only meat and you find imbalance in the long term, same as vegetarian only, in top of that there aren't studies with results on the long term with any diet as its obviously difficult (30+ years?).

If you take a look at the countries with best life expectancy (and taking in consideration that there are tons of factor that may impact on this) you got countries where carbs are predominant (rice, pasta, potatoes, bread) I don't know about macao....

My point is trying to have a balanced diet, uptake carbs / protein / fat according to your current needs (I'm T1 diabetic and for me, even if doctors reccomended a High Carb Diet I'm not doing it as I prefer to deal with low carb / low insulin / low risk kind of life) and in the long term you will tend to have less problems for sure.

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As much as I hate all the hype and BS that surround the keto/IF culture, I'm not sure it is sub optimal enough to be considered "bad". Could you be healthier by eating differently? Yup. But by how much?

If it helps you maintain a healthy weight then you are 98% of the way there. Yeah, it probably reduces your LBM, but not by very much. And there are limited studies that take into account the criticisms of how they measure LBM (granted, those few studies do take those criticisms into account and still find they reduce LBM). And yeah, excess saturated fat is probably going to cause issues, but if you aren't eating bacon for every meal you will probably be fine. Just make sure to not disregard your blood tests because some guy on the internet told you your doctor is dumb and doesn't know how to read them. The people who made the guidelines have studied it quite a bit, dismissing them just because your GP isn't a cardiologist is silly at best.

That said... Dr Layne Norton's critique of Dr Saladino's carnivore diet is a really well cited resource for sorting out nutrition BS surrounding these diets. Paul Saladino on Joe Rogan Experience: Hype vs. Evidence | Biolayne
 
excess saturated fat is probably going to cause issues,
Saturated Fat

It not going to be a issue on a well formulated Ketogenic Diet.

Which bring us to...

if you aren't eating bacon for every meal you will probably be fine.
Bacon

To reiterate, Saturated Fat isn't an issue in a well written Ketogenic Diet. Let look at ...

My Diet

Each morning I have,

1) Bacon Ends and Pieces every morning; approximately 64 grams.
.
2) 2-3 Eggs cooked in butter

3) 22 gram of Protein Blend mixed with 64 plus grams of Whipped Cream

4) 28 - 56 grams of Pepperoni with 28 gram of Cheese melted on it

5) A Fat Shot (1 tablespoon of MCT Oil with 1 tablespoon of Avocado Oil)

6) And if I am still hungry, I have 14-28 grams of Spicy Peanuts

Breakfast Fat Intake: Around 120 gram of Fat; a lot of Saturated Fat.

Lunch

Usually some Branch Chain Amino Acids

Dinner

It varies but remains Keto; High Fat (high saturated fats) along with some Monounsaturated and Polyunsaturated Fat.

Dinner Fat Intake: Approximately 80 plus gram.

My Last Blood Profile

I have charted my Blood Lipid Profile for since 2015.

Let examine my most recent Blood Lipid Panel Profile

LDL


Good or bad LDL is determined by the percentage of good Particle A or bad Particle B.

My LDL is above the Recommended Level.

My elevated LDL Number is due to a high intake of Saturated Fat. The LDL stand alone number means nothing.

The Particle Size Percentage is the determinate factor of good or bad.

My HDL:Triglyceride Ratio show that I have a higher percentage of good Particle A and lower percentage of Particle B LDL.

So, my LDL is just fine.

Triglycerides

Low Carbohydrates intake produces a Low Triglyceride Number. Low is good when it come to Triglycerides.

Kenny's
6/22/2021
Recommended
Total Cholesterol
196
< 200
LDL
140
< 100
HDL
41
> 40
Triglycerides
61
< 150
Triglyceride:HDL Ratio
1.48
< 2.0
Remnant Cholesterol
15
< 20
Reading A Blood Lipid Panel

This following information has been posted several time. Let's break it down again...

1) Total Cholesterol

This stand alone number means nothing. Its relevance is in determining another vital number: Remanent Cholesterol.

2) LDL

This is another stand alone number that means nothing.

What is more important is knowing if an individual has more Particle A (good) or Particle B (bad) LDL.

A test can be give for it.

Another method of determining it is the HDL:Triglyceride Ratio.

3) HDL

This is an important stand alone number.

4) Triglycerides

This is a very important stand alone number.

Just make sure to not disregard your blood tests because some guy on the internet told you your doctor is dumb and doesn't know how to read them.

Lack of Knowledge By Physicians

Unfortunately, many physicians have not kept up with research on Cholesterol, nor do they understand how to read a Blood Lipid Panel.

Many physicians have are not familiar with Remnant Cholesterol, how to calculate it, and its value in reading a Blood Lipid Panel.

Many physicians have the same issue with using the HDL:Triglyceride Ratio to determine an if an individual has good, Particle A or bad, Particle B LDL.

The people who made the guidelines have studied it quite a bit,

And Unfortunately Still Lack The Knowledge

The foundation of misinformation on cholesterol is build on Ansel Keys' Seven Countries Study that has been around for over 60 years.

Keys' study involved 22 Countries. However, since 15 Countries disproved his theory, those countries were discarded.

Only the 7 Seven Countries that supported Key's premise were cited.

That's not back science. It a con job.

Physicians have not kept up.

Take Home Message

1) Learn how to read a Blood Lipid Profile

Some individual numbers have value and other don't.

Be especially aware of Remnant Cholesterol and HDL:Triglyceride Ratio numbers.

2) Many physicians lack knowledge in how to read a Blood Lipid Profile.

3) Don't believe anyone. Do you own homework and find out for yourself.
 
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It not going to be a issue on a well formulated Ketogenic Diet.
What is a well formulated Ketogenic Diet?
As they say, the plural of anecdote is not called data. One of the oldest men in the world smoked a cigar and drank a bottle of whiskey every day till he died. That doesn't mean it is a good idea for most people.
Bacon Ends and Pieces every morning; approximately 64 grams.
I don't mean to be moving goal posts.. But are you at all concerned about the sodium levels and nitrates with that?
My LDL is above the Recommended Level.

My elevated LDL Number is due to a high intake of Saturated Fat. The LDL stand alone number means nothing.
There were a couple studies that seemed to support this idea. Since then many more of looked into it further and found that yes indeed the LDL stand alone number does matter. At least when it comes to heart disease. Does it matter as much as your HDL: Triglyceride ratio? Probably not. But it does have a definite relationship. (source)
It a con job.
I dunno, a con job to me would look more like downplaying any evidence that goes against a theory while overvaluing any cursory evidence that agrees with you to sell more books, courses, certifications, seminars, etc... to teach people how everyone else is wrong and you are right and are the only source of the TRUTH in order to isolate people and make them distrust anyone else that tries to help them. *cough* Gary Taubes *cough*
Lack of Knowledge By Physicians

Unfortunately, many physicians have not kept up with research on Cholesterol, nor do they understand how to read a Blood Lipid Panel.

Many physicians have are not familiar with Remnant Cholesterol, how to calculate it, and its value in reading a Blood Lipid Panel.

Many physicians have the same issue with using the HDL:Triglyceride Ratio to determine an if an individual has good, Particle A or bad, Particle B LDL.
Seems like the guidelines were just updated in 2018. I referenced my last test and it was using the current guidelines. (I believe your guidelines you listed are the old version, or not the standard guidelines)
The foundation of misinformation on cholesterol is build on Ansel Keys' Seven Countries Study that has been around for over 60 years.
Where are you getting this? Every recommendation I'm finding is citing studies done in the last 20 years. Clicking through a few of those studies they are citing more recent research as well. It is hardly a well done literature review, but I'm not seeing it.

3) Don't believe anyone. Do you own homework and find out for yourself.
I do my best, which is why it is always interesting researching your points. Although I usually find myself coming to different conclusions than you... But wtf do I know? If you want a good well cited criticism of the keto diet go line by line with one of well written critiques in this thread.

I also would like to add that I do actually read every source you have ever sent me on the keto diet.
 
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Interesting reads - Thanks for posting.
One confusion I have is that 'fasting' is such a loosely defined term.
There is the 16:8, 20:4, two full days a week, and on and on.

As a person who needs to get their eating and diet under control, the 16:8 appeals to me. Then I have a designated window, which is mostly focused around meals and eliminates my desire to snack... all the time...

It's a struggle to determine what length of fasting really becomes a problem.
All I could find is this:
'Having a carbohydrate-containing meal or snack every 3-4 hours is typically adequate to minimize the stress hormones and maximize glucose metabolism.'

Nutrition is confusing...
 
What is a well formulated Ketogenic Diet?
Lack Of Knowledge

At least you are willing to concede that you have a lack of knowledge in this area. That a start.

I have provide the Cliff Note on this in previous post. You might want to consider reading some more in depth research article and/or book on it.

As they say, the plural of anecdote is not called data. One of the oldest men in the world smoked a cigar and drank a bottle of whiskey every day till he died. That doesn't mean it is a good idea for most people.

"A good idea for most people"

I never stated it was a good idea for most individual.

You have a tendency to read into something that isn't there.

You also have a tendency to try interpret information that is posted with essentially, "Here what I think they mean".

As you stated, "'Im not sure it is sub optimal enough to be considered "bad".

My Position

As I have stated in previous post, I am on the Ketogenic Diet due to a Metabolic Condition. As we know, with certain type of health disorders, the Ketogenic Diet is an effective tool.

As I have stated, I am not a proponent of the Ketogenic Diet because it is so restrictive. The hard you make something, the less compliant individual are.

I provide my Blood Lipid Profile and explain it as an example it long term effects.

I realize research results are most accurate with...

The Law of Large Numbers

The lager the population base of the study, the greater the accuracy of the percentage prediction.

With that said, there is plenty of large research data that demonstrates that I am not a...

Snowflake

That meaning that I am a one of a kind individual who is the only one on the planet that obtaining these results.

But are you at all concerned about the sodium levels and nitrates with that?

Lack of Knowledge

Regarding your questioning sodium levels means that you definitely have no idea of the importance of sodium intake is on the Ketogenic Diet. There is some interesting research on nitrates that came out a few years ago that addressed this.

yes indeed the LDL stand alone number does matter. At least when it comes to heart disease.

LDL Particle Size

What matters is the percentage of good, Particle A or bad, Particle B that an individual has.

Wthout the specifics of the Particle A or B, it impossible to ascertain if you LDL Is good or bad.

(I believe your guidelines you listed are the old version, or not the standard guidelines)

Guidelines

You "Believe" means you don't know and are guessing; which is an issue.

If the you have some updated guidelines, please post them.

Does it matter as much as your HDL: Triglyceride ratio? Probably not

This is a redundant theme with you, isn't it? :)

The research data has demonstrated that HDL:Triglyceride Ratio provides reliable information on Particle Size.

teach people how everyone else is wrong and you are right and are the only source of the TRUTH in order to isolate people and make them distrust anyone else that tries to help them.

Education

Advising individual to question information and do their own research and come to their own conclusion is about looking a subject from all side to ensure the right facts are obtain.

Your conspiracy theory as to my objective to isolate people and build distrust is beyond me.

My objective in posting information is to provide educational information to assist other and override misinformation that is often posted.

But wtf do I know?

Exactly

Some of you question demonstrate your lack of knowledge regarding the Ketogenic Diet.

If you want a good well cited criticism of the keto diet go line by line with one of well written critiques in this thread.

Ketogenic Books

I don't see the point in writing a book for you on the Ketogenic Diet; since there are so many well vetted book, articles and podcast from individual like Vole, Phinney, D'Agistino, Wilson, Lowery, Seyfried, etc.

I also would like to add that I do actually read every source you have ever sent me on the keto diet.

Not So

Reading means comprehending information strung together with sentences and paragraph.

To reiterate once more, some of your question indicate that you didn't comprehend the information that you read or that you don't remember it.
 
Interesting reads - Thanks for posting.
One confusion I have is that 'fasting' is such a loosely defined term.
There is the 16:8, 20:4, two full days a week, and on and on.

As a person who needs to get their eating and diet under control, the 16:8 appeals to me. Then I have a designated window, which is mostly focused around meals and eliminates my desire to snack... all the time...

It's a struggle to determine what length of fasting really becomes a problem.
All I could find is this:
'Having a carbohydrate-containing meal or snack every 3-4 hours is typically adequate to minimize the stress hormones and maximize glucose metabolism.'

Nutrition is confusing...
If the 16/8 is appealing give it a go.
 
If the 16/8 is appealing give it a go.
I think this sums up just about every diet/ meal plan out there. Give it a try and see how you respond.

The only caveat is that a lot of these restricted timeframe diets really shouldn't be used by people who are still growing who don't need to lose weight.

Another thing to consider - a lot of the benefit form various macro and timing strategies can be had just from exercise. Reading about how this or that nutritional strategy effects one's metabolism or physiology I'm often struck by the thought "doesn't exercise already do that?" and on further reacquainting myself with the literature the answer is most often "yes".
 
If the 16/8 is appealing give it a go

Brad Pilon, MS Nutritioin

Pilon obtain his Masters in Nutrition, as he said which was ironic, based Master Research of not eating, Fasting.

PIlon is an advocate of the 24 hour Fast.

However. per PIlon, the benefits of fasting occur after 12 hours of not eating.

Thus. once you have Fasted for 12 hours, mission accomplished. Anything longer is a bonus.

That mean, if after a 12 hour fast, if you are hungry and grumpy, eat. Don't make yourself or other crazy.

Dr John Berardi, NSCA Intermittent Fasting Prestentation


This is a great presentation on the Intermittent Fasting and the various method.

Berardi goes on to examine his personal experience with the various method and what he considers...

The Friendliest Intermittent Fasting Methods

1) 16/8 Intermittent Fast

2) 24 Hour Fast

My Experience and Preference

My longest Intermittent Fast was 47 hours, with no issue. I cut it short of being a 2 day/48 hour Fast because I had a Heavy Squat Training Session the next morning. I was tired, wanted to eat and to go to sleep

My Squat Session the next morning went well.

Don's 16/8 Recommendation

Like Don and Berardi, I find this to be the easiest and most friendly.

Dr MIke T. Nelson's Intermittent Fasting Recommendation

Nelson, like Pilon, is a proponent of the 24 hour Intermittent Fast.

One of Nelson recommendations for individual who initially have difficulty with Intermittent Fasting is...

1) Make you last meal around let's say 6 pm.

2) Have something for breakfast after 6 am, if possible.

Once that goal is achieved...

3) Make an effort to extend you breakfast (Breaking The Fast) to let say 7 am.

One that is accomplished, work in extending the Intermittent Fast out to later; 8 am, 9 am, etc.

This bring us back to Pilon's Intermittent Fasting Recommendation

1) Anything 12 hours plus is a victory.

2) If you really hungry don't suffer or make someone else around you crazy. Have something to eat. You met you met your 12 Intermittent Fasting Objective.
 
Brad Pilon, MS Nutritioin

Pilon obtain his Masters in Nutrition, as he said which was ironic, based Master Research of not eating, Fasting.

PIlon is an advocate of the 24 hour Fast.

However. per PIlon, the benefits of fasting occur after 12 hours of not eating.

Thus. once you have Fasted for 12 hours, mission accomplished. Anything longer is a bonus.

That mean, if after a 12 hour fast, if you are hungry and grumpy, eat. Don't make yourself or other crazy.

Dr John Berardi, NSCA Intermittent Fasting Prestentation


This is a great presentation on the Intermittent Fasting and the various method.

Berardi goes on to examine his personal experience with the various method and what he considers...

The Friendliest Intermittent Fasting Methods

1) 16/8 Intermittent Fast

2) 24 Hour Fast

My Experience and Preference

My longest Intermittent Fast was 47 hours, with no issue. I cut it short of being a 2 day/48 hour Fast because I had a Heavy Squat Training Session the next morning. I was tired, wanted to eat and to go to sleep

My Squat Session the next morning went well.

Don's 16/8 Recommendation

Like Don and Berardi, I find this to be the easiest and most friendly.

Dr MIke T. Nelson's Intermittent Fasting Recommendation

Nelson, like Pilon, is a proponent of the 24 hour Intermittent Fast.

One of Nelson recommendations for individual who initially have difficulty with Intermittent Fasting is...

1) Make you last meal around let's say 6 pm.

2) Have something for breakfast after 6 am, if possible.

Once that goal is achieved...

3) Make an effort to extend you breakfast (Breaking The Fast) to let say 7 am.

One that is accomplished, work in extending the Intermittent Fast out to later; 8 am, 9 am, etc.

This bring us back to Pilon's Intermittent Fasting Recommendation

1) Anything 12 hours plus is a victory.

2) If you really hungry don't suffer or make someone else around you crazy. Have something to eat. You met you met your 12 Intermittent Fasting Objective.

I'm currently 71 hours into a water, salt coffee, MCT oil regimen. Started October off with the same thing ( except water, coffee, salt only ) for 5 and 1/2 days. Got the idea to kick off each month with a so called " Unsuccessful Hunt " from Brain "Liver King " Johnson, who has started each month with a 5 day water fast since 2017. I'm experimenting to see if I notice any difference with the MCT added. Last year this time I did 7 days of water, coffee, salt. Year before that 5 days of the same. The first 5 day stint I had several nagging muscle/joint/connective tissue issues disappear and a nice training boost for the next 4 months. After the 7 day, I did not notice anything.
Some form of training everyday during these breaks. Yesterday was some mobility, 100 unbroken bw squats to a 12" box, then a 1 mile walk with a 12KG bell in each hand, took 16 minutes. Nothing major, but something. Long story longer, I like experimenting with this stuff, and I believe a decent gap btwn. meals is a healthful, natural way to eat.

Kenny, a side note: I was a couple days in when reading your breakfast menu yesterday. Pavlov effect, almost when shopping.
 
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If the you have some updated guidelines, please post them.
I did... I provided a link that also cited everything in the new guidelines. Here is the relevant quote:
Seems like the guidelines were just updated in 2018. I referenced my last test and it was using the current guidelines. (I believe your guidelines you listed are the old version, or not the standard guidelines)

The research data has demonstrated that HDL:Triglyceride Ratio provides reliable information on Particle Size.
yes. That is what I said. It does that does not make total LDL not important. Here is the relevant quote:
But it does have a definite relationship. (source)

What matters is the percentage of good, Particle A or bad, Particle B that an individual has.
Research done since 2016 has shown that there is more to this story than a binary good/bad LDL. I provided a well researched source for this statement above (same source)

Reading means comprehending information strung together with sentences and paragraph.
Very true. It is interesting that both times you said I didn't provide information you quoted sentences were near sentences containing the relevant info.
 
Interesting reads - Thanks for posting.
One confusion I have is that 'fasting' is such a loosely defined term.
There is the 16:8, 20:4, two full days a week, and on and on.

As a person who needs to get their eating and diet under control, the 16:8 appeals to me. Then I have a designated window, which is mostly focused around meals and eliminates my desire to snack... all the time...

It's a struggle to determine what length of fasting really becomes a problem.
All I could find is this:
'Having a carbohydrate-containing meal or snack every 3-4 hours is typically adequate to minimize the stress hormones and maximize glucose metabolism.'

Nutrition is confusing...
It is simpler than it seems. Dr Mike Isratel has a good ted talk about it here:
 
I'm currently 71 hours into a water, salt coffee, MCT oil regimen. Started October off with the same thing ( except water, coffee, salt only ) for 5 and 1/2 days. Got the idea to kick off each month with a so called " Unsuccessful Hunt " from Brain "Liver King " Johnson, who has started each month with a 5 day water fast since 2017. I'm experimenting to see if I notice any difference with the MCT added. Last year this time I did 7 days of water, coffee, salt. Year before that 5 days of the same. The first 5 day stint I had several nagging muscle/joint/connective tissue issues disappear and a nice training boost for the next 4 months. After the 7 day, I did not notice anything.
Some form of training everyday during these breaks. Yesterday was some mobility, 100 unbroken bw squats to a 12" box, then a 1 mile walk with a 12KG bell in each hand, took 16 minutes. Nothing major, but something. Long story longer, I like experimenting with this stuff, and I believe a decent gap btwn. meals is a healthful, natural way to eat.

Kenny, a side note: I was a couple days in when reading your breakfast menu yesterday. Pavlov effect, almost when shopping.
Fasting seems to be working for the Liver King. Extended fasts too. He has alot of good reads on the Ancestral Supplements site. Always willing to answer questions too
 
16/8 seems to be the sweet spot. Extended fasts once in awhile. John Berardi I believe did self experiments and found Monday to Friday 16/8 and Saturday to Sunday 20/4 worked best. I think this would work best for most people as during the work week we have set break periods and stuff, while on the weekends we get busy doing chores, playing with the kids or out hunting. But, many have found success with OMAD too. Pavel Tsatsouline, Nsima Inyang, and Liver King Brian Johnson. Personally I don't know what's best for me. I hate eating or having food in my system during the day. So I think I'm going to try a bcaa and greens drink at noon and a meal after working out and maybe a shake before bed. Making it a 16/8. Weekends will be 20/4. I like the OMAD concept, but just felt I wasn't getting enough in. Maybe I should've had a top up shake before bed.
 
16/8 seems to be the sweet spot. Extended fasts once in awhile. John Berardi I believe did self experiments and found Monday to Friday 16/8 and Saturday to Sunday 20/4 worked best. I think this would work best for most people as during the work week we have set break periods and stuff, while on the weekends we get busy doing chores, playing with the kids or out hunting. But, many have found success with OMAD too. Pavel Tsatsouline, Nsima Inyang, and Liver King Brian Johnson. Personally I don't know what's best for me. I hate eating or having food in my system during the day. So I think I'm going to try a bcaa and greens drink at noon and a meal after working out and maybe a shake before bed. Making it a 16/8. Weekends will be 20/4. I like the OMAD concept, but just felt I wasn't getting enough in. Maybe I should've had a top up shake before bed.
Yes, self experiments, very helpful. and I like to use the Delta 20 principle with nutrition as well as training. A couple of ways to add some calories during the day with no ( for me ) brain or body drag. A t-spoon or more of duck fat and/or tallow. Easy, just need to be around a refrigerator.
 
Yes, self experiments, very helpful. and I like to use the Delta 20 principle with nutrition as well as training. A couple of ways to add some calories during the day with no ( for me ) brain or body drag. A t-spoon or more of duck fat and/or tallow. Easy, just need to be around a refrigerator.
I don't think it was calories per say, but enough protein. Would coconut oil work? Brings us back to Geoffs 24hr diet
 
I don't think it was calories per say, but enough protein. Would coconut oil work? Brings us back to Geoffs 24hr diet
Yes, and no fridge required. How are you with a couple soft boiled eggs ?

If in a hurry, I'll eat them raw.
 
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Yes, and no fridge required. How are you with a couple of soft boiled eggs ?

If in a hurry, I'll eat them raw.
Actually haven't tried the egg route. I did do iron Addicts version with a couple protein shakes spaced about four hours apart, but protein in water gets old and gross after awhile.
 
Actually haven't tried the egg route. I did do iron Addicts version with a couple protein shakes spaced about four hours apart, but protein in water gets old and gross after awhile.
Tera's Organic Whey Vanilla, toss in mouth and chase with water, done. Could throw a bit of MRM Reload BCAA + G ( watermelon ) over the top, same deal, toss and chase with water. Power Lunch, takes 20 seconds.
 
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