Other/Mixed What are the energy systems at work while fighting

[Seanpero]

Hi I’m 21 yo pro mma fighter, recently I have been reading Pavel books and immediately was hooked as he’s methods really correlate with what happens in fighting especially in the q&d protocol.
Now my question is that we have 30 seconds of use by our cp system let’s say we burst into a combination then rest then took down our opponent then again rest (while moving) and then scrambling while he gets up and that’s it 30 sec of power usage in let’s say half a round now we need 3 min to recover before we can work at the same capacity? So from how I see it in a fight most of the time the glycolysis system is at work while putting work and the rest is aerobic?
What is your take on it , which energy systems are the most active and important in an mma fight or even a boxing match and how will you manage cp deplation?

 

[pet']

Hello,

As far as prep goes :

S&C Training for MMA With Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Here is a summary of our basic S&C Training for MMA with UFC fighter Viktor Pešta - including his strength and conditioning training, how he ate, and more.

www.strongfirst.com

I play boxing, but not as extensively as you practice MMA. From my understanding, actual fight is very lactic (short and intense bouts of effort) with aerobic in between (waiting and positioning, etc...) which eventually lasts long during the fight.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Pasibrzuch]

I'm not a physiologist, so I will not try to describe any of the actual processes, but I will give my two cents as an amateur Muay Thai trainee, speaking from a purely experiential position.

Besides doing my regular MT trainings, I did a lot of S&S, 12 weeks of Q&D, now I'm almost 6 months into A+A snatching. Even though fighting is not purely alactic, the protocols increased my kicking power tremendously.

My biggest mistake, however, was skipping LSD work. Now doing a long run (40-90mins) at least once a week, I see it benefits my recovery in between rounds: after a burst of energy my HR goes down way faster.

As far as glycolitic work is concerned, I assume you do it plenty in your MMA sessions.

I also learned that fighting endurance depends not only on the aforementioned systems but mainly your efficiency and fluency with motor patterns of your target sport. When I come to my MT classes after a longer break, I get humbled quickly, even though I did my snatches and long runs.

To sum up: train all the systems, you'll benefit from all of them, but don't forget about the power of muscle memory and its bearing on endurance in the ring/on the mat.

 

[pet']

Hello,

+1 @Pasibrzuch
Without a good aerobic base, this is very difficult to build up something.

Like you, I noticed an improvement of my boxing when I have tackled S&S. Nonetheless, benefits have been tenfold since I have been doing trailing and rucking.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[wespom9]

Hi I’m 21 yo pro mma fighter, recently I have been reading Pavel books and immediately was hooked as he’s methods really correlate with what happens in fighting especially in the q&d protocol.
Now my question is that we have 30 seconds of use by our cp system let’s say we burst into a combination then rest then took down our opponent then again rest (while moving) and then scrambling while he gets up and that’s it 30 sec of power usage in let’s say half a round now we need 3 min to recover before we can work at the same capacity? So from how I see it in a fight most of the time the glycolysis system is at work while putting work and the rest is aerobic?
What is your take on it , which energy systems are the most active and important in an mma fight or even a boxing match and how will you manage cp deplation?

This of course depends on the nature of the fight, but
Most active: glycolysis though they are all at play at different times.
Manage depletion: you really don't; you survive. You will not be fully rested or restored in terms of CP capacity for the next "set" in the fight.
Most important: all of them. You need one kill power, you need recovery, you need repeat power, and you need to be able to buffer acidosis otherwise you will lose your power.
This is why a good strength coach will help you!

 

[Anna C]

You'd probably enjoy this book: Ultimate MMA Conditioning - 8 Weeks Out. I found it quite useful and I don't have anything to do with fighting.

The information agrees with most of Pavel's work although Pavel has gone deeper in some areas. Shop Books & DVDs online, The Quick and the Dead—Paperback, Kindle Edition or Audio Book | StrongFirst has a lot of in-depth information about energy systems.

 

[Bauer]

Welcome @Seanpero !

I think others have said a lot about energy systems. I will just add that the ability to relax is the other side of the coin. The more you are able to relax deeply and quickly from intense bouts the faster you will replenish your energy systems and also your mental focus.

High level athletes are usually extremely good at this. I believe Second Wind covers this phenomenon (and ways to train it).

 

[Seanpero]

Hello,

As far as prep goes :

S&C Training for MMA With Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Here is a summary of our basic S&C Training for MMA with UFC fighter Viktor Pešta - including his strength and conditioning training, how he ate, and more.

www.strongfirst.com

I play boxing, but not as extensively as you practice MMA. From my understanding, actual fight is very lactic (short and intense bouts of effort) with aerobic in between (waiting and positioning, etc...) which eventually lasts long during the fight.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Thanks brother I’ll look into it

 

[Seanpero]

I'm not a physiologist, so I will not try to describe any of the actual processes, but I will give my two cents as an amateur Muay Thai trainee, speaking from a purely experiential position.

Besides doing my regular MT trainings, I did a lot of S&S, 12 weeks of Q&D, now I'm almost 6 months into A+A snatching. Even though fighting is not purely alactic, the protocols increased my kicking power tremendously.

My biggest mistake, however, was skipping LSD work. Now doing a long run (40-90mins) at least once a week, I see it benefits my recovery in between rounds: after a burst of energy my HR goes down way faster.

As far as glycolitic work is concerned, I assume you do it plenty in your MMA sessions.

I also learned that fighting endurance depends not only on the aforementioned systems but mainly your efficiency and fluency with motor patterns of your target sport. When I come to my MT classes after a longer break, I get humbled quickly, even though I did my snatches and long runs.

To sum up: train all the systems, you'll benefit from all of them, but don't forget about the power of muscle memory and its bearing on endurance in the ring/on the mat.

Thanks man great answer!
Another question as I’m new to Pavel - I just learned the q&d protocol from he’s book what are a+a/s+s/lsd work?
Thanks?

 

[Seanpero]

This of course depends on the nature of the fight, but
Most active: glycolysis though they are all at play at different times.
Manage depletion: you really don't; you survive. You will not be fully rested or restored in terms of CP capacity for the next "set" in the fight.
Most important: all of them. You need one kill power, you need recovery, you need repeat power, and you need to be able to buffer acidosis otherwise you will lose your power.
This is why a good strength coach will help you!

Great answer ! What I was looking for?

 

[Seanpero]

You'd probably enjoy this book: Ultimate MMA Conditioning - 8 Weeks Out. I found it quite useful and I don't have anything to do with fighting.

The information agrees with most of Pavel's work although Pavel has gone deeper in some areas. Shop Books & DVDs online, The Quick and the Dead—Paperback, Kindle Edition or Audio Book | StrongFirst has a lot of in-depth information about energy systems.

Ye I just read the q&d amazing book and led me to understand everything much more just wanted to dive deeper as I analyze fight to see where the problem occurred

 

[Seanpero]

Welcome @Seanpero !

I think others have said a lot about energy systems. I will just add that the ability to relax is the other side of the coin. The more you are able to relax deeply and quickly from intense bouts the faster you will replenish your energy systems and also your mental focus.

High level athletes are usually extremely good at this. I believe Second Wind covers this phenomenon (and ways to train it).

Is second wind a book?

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Thanks man great answer!
Another question as I’m new to Pavel - I just learned the q&d protocol from he’s book what are a+a/s+s/lsd work?
Thanks?

Long story short:
A(lactic)+A(erobic) - Elevation of HR just to anaerobic threshold with a full power 5 reps of a kettlebell ballistic of your choice (snatch, swing, clean and jerk), rest to a HR that enables you to perform the very same effort for an average of 30 repeats.
Simple and Sinister - the flagship training plan of Strongfirst. 10x10 powerful oh swings. You rest till you pass the 'talk test'. Sprinkle with 5x1 getup each side.
LSD - unfortunately not what I thought at the first time. The acronym stands for 'long slow distance'. Run/ruck/row/cycle for 40-90 minutes below your 180 - age heart rate/below your anaerobic threshold. Yes, it's a ridiculously slow pace.

Type any of it into the search engine of this forum and welcome to the best rabbit hole in the topic of endurance

You'd probably enjoy this book: Ultimate MMA Conditioning - 8 Weeks Out. I found it quite useful and I don't have anything to do with fighting.

Second that! The only drawback is that you need to resist the urge to implement all the methods at once. It's very concordant with Pavel's works and emphasis on developing your alactic and aerobic systems. The author also refers to Vershovansky and Seulyanov (pardon if I misspelled their names).

 

[Seanpero]

Your the man!!!
Thank you!!!

 

[Seanpero]

I'm not a physiologist, so I will not try to describe any of the actual processes, but I will give my two cents as an amateur Muay Thai trainee, speaking from a purely experiential position.

Besides doing my regular MT trainings, I did a lot of S&S, 12 weeks of Q&D, now I'm almost 6 months into A+A snatching. Even though fighting is not purely alactic, the protocols increased my kicking power tremendously.

My biggest mistake, however, was skipping LSD work. Now doing a long run (40-90mins) at least once a week, I see it benefits my recovery in between rounds: after a burst of energy my HR goes down way faster.

As far as glycolitic work is concerned, I assume you do it plenty in your MMA sessions.

I also learned that fighting endurance depends not only on the aforementioned systems but mainly your efficiency and fluency with motor patterns of your target sport. When I come to my MT classes after a longer break, I get humbled quickly, even though I did my snatches and long runs.

To sum up: train all the systems, you'll benefit from all of them, but don't forget about the power of muscle memory and its bearing on endurance in the ring/on the mat.

Another question about that how do you plan your week of training (According to a fighter scedual of 10 training units per week a minimum)
Would you do lsd work more then once a week?
How would you decide between s+s/a+a/q+d for how many times a week? Would you combine them? Let’s say 2 times q+d with 1 time a+a and 1 time lsd ? Or you will stick to one of them for a period of time?
Another small question- i read q+d book which other books should interest me to feel the gaps in that book?? thank you

 

[pet']

Hello,

LSD is not supposed to be taxing. You could almost view it as an aerobic recovery activity the day after a hard training session. Twice a week may be enough.

QD is optimal once we reached Simple. Block training works well. Below is the megathread

The Quick and the Dead - MegaThread

If you've read from cover to cover - that is a prerequisite - and have questions, let's keep them all here for a little while. Thanks, folks. -S-

www.strongfirst.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[wespom9]

Long story short:
A(lactic)+A(erobic) - Elevation of HR just to anaerobic threshold

Not to nitpick, but with 5 swings/snatches you very likely are not going to your anaerobic threshold. Your HR will spike but for most people stay in the aerobic zone.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Another question about that how do you plan your week of training (According to a fighter scedual of 10 training units per week a minimum)
Would you do lsd work more then once a week?
How would you decide between s+s/a+a/q+d for how many times a week? Would you combine them? Let’s say 2 times q+d with 1 time a+a and 1 time lsd ? Or you will stick to one of them for a period of time?
Another small question- i read q+d book which other books should interest me to feel the gaps in that book?? thank you

Block periodization of six weeks is recommended when it comes to QandD and A+A. However, if you're new to Strongfirst methodology start with the program in the article @pet' linked. You can benefit from it for a long time if not forever. If you're a person that needs to see progress in numbers you can do the program with a HR monitor according to these guidelines: Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst This way you will 1. keep track of your progress 2. monitor your level of fatigue, so you can scale back when needed. 3. make sure your staying alactic and not doubling glycolitic adaptations from your MMA practice. When you feel you exhausted the benefits of S&S (if that's even possible) you can take Q&D for 12 weeks, A+A for six weeks, Q&D for six weeks and repeat ad infinitum.
When it comes to aerobic base: if you want to train your motor patterns and aerobic base at the same time, maybe you could look up tempo intervals: Tempo Intervals & MMA Fitness

Mind the fact that I'm an amateur fighter and I don't even near the volume of work you do in your MMA sessions. I just wrote how I schedule my S&C and what worked for me.

Not to nitpick, but with 5 swings/snatches you very likely are not going to your anaerobic threshold. Your HR will spike but for most people stay in the aerobic zone.

That's interesting: 5 32kg snatches elevate my HR just below or slightly above my MAF number. I observed that spike in HR depends also on body tension and force production.

 

[offwidth]

elevate my HR just below or slightly above my MAF number

your ‘so-called’ MAF number is approximately your Aerobic Threshold (AeT), not your Anaerobic Threshold (AnT or Lactate Threshold)
In most people there is a really big difference. In well trained endurance athletes the difference is less, but still could be 20bpm higher.

 

[wespom9]

@Pasibrzuch, I was getting at what @offwidth better described.