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Kettlebell What is our goal?

svencandy

Level 5 Valued Member
A common question that gets asked.

ROP is promised to make us stronger, if we do not stray from the program. And this is true.

Due to a strained trap muscle, I headed to the commercial gym and fooled around.

Back squats were sweet, so we're pushups. After 4 sessions and 2 massages I did a freestyle session with bells.

28, previous 3rm, put it up for 6.

If our goal is to press half BW, are we cutting ourselves short by not cross training?

I don't mean doing a million exercises, but 6 seems right.

Some bodyweight (pushups, pullups)

Some barbell (deadlifts, squats)

Some KB (C+P), Snatch, swing.


I know strongfirst advocates for all, but seems it's all at once approach.

When strength can drive power, and strength in other movements can drive strength, in my case, almost immediately.

I understand the skill component, and maybe this is "variety days".

Maybe the light day could do well as a variety day?

I guess that's why we should contact a good coach....
 
I agree that cross-training is/can be beneficial to achieving individual goals. I think the entire idea of S&S, Q&D, ROP and A&A is to achieve goals with a minimalist program that doesn't require much and is scaled down to the simplest form.
 
I agree that cross-training is/can be beneficial to achieving individual goals. I think the entire idea of S&S, Q&D, ROP and A&A is to achieve goals with a minimalist program that doesn't require much and is scaled down to the simplest form.
That's a large part of what I like about Strongfirst: Get the maximum amount of benefits with a minimum amount of time invested. Because strength has a greater purpose, time spent on unnecessarily long workouts is time taken from the pursuit of said greater purpose.
 
Thanks for opening up this topic. I did a double clean and press only program for a long time. While my press increased from a 3rm to a 10rm, a lot of my other lifts lagged, especially in pull-ups, which dropped from 10 solid reps to now about 4.
 
Yes, we are cutting ourselves short... but this depends.

How much time/energy do you have to devote? How strong are you, how is your training scheduled? Do you have a family? Whats your occupation?

When I started using the 40kg bell i brought it to the office, had it next to my desk and pressed it throughout the day. In the evening i trained nogi grappling.

I could not have done nogi and RoP at the same time. But I could progress with what I was doing.

A few years later I did RoP with 85kg log press 3 days a week and 5x5 squats 2 days a week. And nogi grappling 4 days a week. But my training could be 4 hrs on the same day, but fatigue from the strength training was kept low.
If you have a full time job and a family this is not realistic, I was a student.

For a full time dad and full time worker, perhaps you have 1 day a week to go to the gym, then a kettlebell next to the sofa to press during the evenings are a perfect candidate for RoP
 
time spent on unnecessarily long workouts is time taken from the pursuit of said greater purpose.
I disagree slightly *if* I understood Wifi correctly
a) fully agree that the minimal program is to achieve maximum results with the shortest usage of training time
b) the saved time is for life's other priorities

If you *do* have more time allocated to training in your life, then I disagree with Wifi. cross-training and longer workouts will surely add value to achieving your fitness/strentgh goals. this is an opinion, not a researched fact. my own experiment is with running, no amount of kettlebell training will help me finish a strong 10km without a strong running+KB preparation. I can say that adding the minimalist KB to my running program definitely helps my running goals.
 
A common question that gets asked.

ROP is promised to make us stronger, if we do not stray from the program. And this is true.

Due to a strained trap muscle, I headed to the commercial gym and fooled around.

Back squats were sweet, so we're pushups. After 4 sessions and 2 massages I did a freestyle session with bells.

28, previous 3rm, put it up for 6.

If our goal is to press half BW, are we cutting ourselves short by not cross training?

I don't mean doing a million exercises ...

@svencandy, a few thoughts for you, and I agree with others here who've said it's a good and interesting topic.

1. There's a Latin language expression, "post hoc ergo propter hoc." It means that because one thing happens after another, we can't assume that the first thing was the cause of the second. Was 4 training sessions of pushups and squats the cause (a lawyer might say, "proximate cause") of you doubling your RM on a kettlebell press? I think it's difficult to say your improvement was due to "training" pushups and squats. But on the other hand, we see people achieve this same magnitude of improvement regularly at our SFG-I instructor certification, so it's clearly possible to make a big improvement in a short period of time, but I think we need to ascribe the improvement to some sort of "waking up" - of certain muscles, of an ability to get tight, both of which we might call a general improvement in technique, or to specific improvement in technique, e.g., you learned to grip the handle harder, or learned that "roll up your kneecaps" or to look at the bell during certain parts of the press - any of these things can make a big difference, and if you hit on more than one of them, perhaps even a doubling of your rep max.

But who's to say if it's "cross training" that's responsible? Maybe in your case it was the massages. Or maybe it was that you got "fired up" by being in a commercial gym instead of your usual training spot?

2. Minimalist training - there's a saying that 20% of what a person is responsible for 80% of their results. Even under those circumstances, it also means that there are benefits to the other things they do, just not perhaps as much benefit. Look, e.g., at high-level lifters - very few practice only their competition lifts and nothing else for years on end but, hey, many of them have the time and the energy to do that. Our PlanStrong manual makes the point that the percentage of assistance exercise work - "other exercises" in this context - goes up as a lifter becomes more experienced. There is benefit to strength training in a non-minimalist manner.

But there is the other side of this, too. For those whose job requires them to be physically fresh at all times, and frankly just for many very busy people who otherwise do nothing more physical than put their phones to their ears and their fingers to their computer keyboards, there is a lot to commend minimalist training.

And there are some things I find it difficult to explain, although I feel like I've tried in several recent posts on other threads. There are some of us who feel that a sharp focus on a few well-chosen things is, overall, more beneficial than a broader approach. It may not be the best way to put up the best numbers at those few things, but it's the best use of my available training time. I don't train this way all the time, but I keep coming back to it. For me, it's 1-arm kettlebell military presses and barbell deadlifts.

... but 6 seems right.

6 may be right for you for a while - go for it. You had, it sounds like, a real moment of discovery - a few new things and one of your old lifts RM doubled. I think that's great. But there isn't going to be a right number for every person, and even for one person there isn't going to be a right number all the time. The person who grapples several times a week, or is in harm's way every day defending our country, or who is simply busy trying to do their best at their job while also doing their best taking care of their family, all these people may find minimalist training to be the best fit for them.

I don't think we should overlook that words explaining the benefits of minimalist training are to be found in every book we have on the subject. If it's not for you for now, that's fine, and if 6 seems right for you for now, that's also fine.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
along with Steve’s points cautioning not to immediately think X=Y, there is always the chance that taking a few days off let your muscles recover and become stronger.

When I feel like I am plateauing, a week away usually lets me put a bigger number up… could just be you weren’t recovering from ROP as fully to make the strength gain.
 
There is a Q&A in the back of ETK where pavel talks about adding pttp deadlifts and pistols etc on your variety day. I always make sure that whatever program I am running I always add in some variety days on occasion (like every other week I will put one in) just to fill in the gaps
 
along with Steve’s points cautioning not to immediately think X=Y, there is always the chance that taking a few days off let your muscles recover and become stronger.

When I feel like I am plateauing, a week away usually lets me put a bigger number up… could just be you weren’t recovering from ROP as fully to make the strength gain.
I think this has a lot to do with it. I just finished Maximorum, and the testing week I woke up with my lower back in severe pain ( not an injury from the program, it was 2 days after my last practice and I was fine when I went to sleep) so I was forced to take 1 1/2 weeks off from pressing.

I expected my RM to be 8 reps as I had just felt what 7 was like and it put me close to the edge. The time off and letting my muscles rest allowed me to put up a solid 10 reps, much more easily than I expected and injury certainly didn’t make me “stronger.”
 
I think this [being rested] has a lot to do with it. I just finished Maximorum, and the testing week I woke up with my lower back in severe pain ( not an injury from the program, it was 2 days after my last practice and I was fine when I went to sleep) so I was forced to take 1 1/2 weeks off from pressing.

I expected my RM to be 8 reps as I had just felt what 7 was like and it put me close to the edge. The time off and letting my muscles rest allowed me to put up a solid 10 reps, much more easily than I expected and injury certainly didn’t make me “stronger.”

This is the kind of thing you learn when you compete as a powerlifter. I've had the best results of my life lately, in large part because I now do my last heavy deadlifts 12 days out from my competition. That might seem like a long time, but with years of training in the bank, it addresses exactly what you're saying, namely that being fresh and rested can yield a better result when it comes to testing for a true maximum performance.

-S-
 
A common question that gets asked.

ROP is promised to make us stronger, if we do not stray from the program. And this is true.

Due to a strained trap muscle, I headed to the commercial gym and fooled around.

Back squats were sweet, so we're pushups. After 4 sessions and 2 massages I did a freestyle session with bells.

28, previous 3rm, put it up for 6.

If our goal is to press half BW, are we cutting ourselves short by not cross training?

I don't mean doing a million exercises, but 6 seems right.

Some bodyweight (pushups, pullups)

Some barbell (deadlifts, squats)

Some KB (C+P), Snatch, swing.


I know strongfirst advocates for all, but seems it's all at once approach.

When strength can drive power, and strength in other movements can drive strength, in my case, almost immediately.

I understand the skill component, and maybe this is "variety days".

Maybe the light day could do well as a variety day?

I guess that's why we should contact a good coach....
What others have said.
Minimalistic approaches to strength and fitness.
 
I disagree slightly *if* I understood Wifi correctly
a) fully agree that the minimal program is to achieve maximum results with the shortest usage of training time
b) the saved time is for life's other priorities

If you *do* have more time allocated to training in your life, then I disagree with Wifi. cross-training and longer workouts will surely add value to achieving your fitness/strentgh goals. this is an opinion, not a researched fact. my own experiment is with running, no amount of kettlebell training will help me finish a strong 10km without a strong running+KB preparation. I can say that adding the minimalist KB to my running program definitely helps my running goals.
Agreed, if the time for training is available, smart choices add to the benefit. I believe the confusion lies in how I worded my original post.
 
6 may be right for you for a while - go for it. You had, it sounds like, a real moment of discovery - a few new things and one of your old lifts RM doubled. I think that's great. But there isn't going to be a right number for every person, and even for one person there isn't going to be a right number all the time. The person who grapples several times a week, or is in harm's way every day defending our country, or who is simply busy trying to do their best at their job while also doing their best taking care of their family, all these people may find minimalist training to be the best fit for them.
6 is a pipe dream for me I guess.

I like the two big moves done frequently philosophy, and understand the need to be fresh to add value to the world.

Does this sound reasonable?

Run a cycle for 4-13 weeks (4 weeks being something like bear and 13 being ROP) get good skill adaptation, run a different cycle or 2 or 3 if you want to hit 6 movements, then come back around, the skill should return earlier and earlier every cycle, meaning you can now push your strength higher.

For context, I can throw stuff around in my job (HVAC) that others can barely lift, although if it came to gym numbers, I can't hold a candle to them.
 
6 is a pipe dream for me I guess.

I like the two big moves done frequently philosophy, and understand the need to be fresh to add value to the world.

Does this sound reasonable? ...

For context, I can throw stuff around in my job (HVAC) that others can barely lift, although if it came to gym numbers, I can't hold a candle to them.

It sounds like you're doing just fine in your job and your exercise. Your original post asked whether we might be missing something by training in a minimalist way, and I think the answer is, "well, maybe, but not much, depending ..." You have a physical job, and no doubt you could put up some better numbers in the gym in other circumstances. Would that be somehow better than what you're doing now? That's a question we can each only answer for ourselves, if you'll forgive a bit of philosophy here.

One of my standard Dad jokes is when someone asks me, e.g., in a restaurant, "Can I get anything else for you?" and I answer, "Yes, do you have a winning lottery ticket for me?" Most of us don't have that, so we find the best balance of things, including exercise, we can that works in the rest of our lives. You _could_ hold a candle to them if you decided to focus on it like they do. Calling working on six exercises a pipe dream is looking at the glass as half empty. It sounds to me like your glass is half full - you set a new PR and you're otherwise doing what you need to.

-S-
 
Kb are a great tool, just not the only one. But its the right one for I'm doing and that's why I use them.
 
What is most important to you?
What is somewhat important?
What is something you want to have but not so important?

When you can clarify these, it's easier to decide how to approach your training
Exactly the same questions in Project Management approach (i.e. Agile, Scrum,etc): We first define the MoSCoW's:
Must Haves, Should haves, Could haves, Won't haves.

and the project is broken down into 4-6 week phases where you reevaluate after each step...well, sometimes 12 week phases on the larger projects.
 
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