Kettlebell What is tougher, Sinister standard or the Beast Tamer/Iron Maiden?

[Robert Noftz]

What is more demanding, the Sinister standard from Simple and Sinister or the Beast Tamer/Iron Maiden standard.

It seems like the Sinister is more grueling because it goes on for a longer period of time and requires more endurance, both mental and physical, but perhaps the Beast Tamer/ Iron Maiden requires more raw strength.

Perhaps some of the more experienced members have personal knowledge about this. I wonder how many people have accomplished both standards?

 

[Pavel Macek]

Short answer is: Yes.

Longer answer: It depends. I am a relatively light guy (70 kg right now). I know the pullup and the pistol would not take me much time (I did pistol and pullup with 40 without any special training), but the press, well, that would take me a lot of time (my current max is 36, after specialised press program). On the other hand, I own Sinister in swings, and quite comfortably, and I am approaching Sinister in get-up. But - I am on S&S for more than 1 year.

Back to the original answer: Yes.

 

[Marc]

Personally I would say Beast Tamer.
I can do 100 one arm swings with 48, not in 5mins but it would not take too long ...
But Beast Tamer seems very hard for me right now.
I would say if you own sinister it would not take too long to own beast tamer and vice versa

 

[Frank_IT]

To me, they are completely unrelated.

Sinister it's part of a program with a specific test, the Beast Tamer/Iron Maiden is just a strength test involving three lifts. Both share one thing that I always found very strange: they're not bodyweight dependant. Like @Pavel Macek said, it's very difficult for not very big guys to press a 48 kg kettlebell. It's not impossibile, but because it's a specific weight and not something based on the individual, certain body types will have a harder time reaching it, if they ever will. There was a Facebook post some time ago of an Asian guy that is the lightest Beast Tamer ever and he's small, but that's an exception: if you look up at the list, each man is pretty big or bulky (Fabio Zonin, for example, is shorter than me but he's got over 10 kg of lean muscle mass more, and he's kind of the tank build, one near the other the difference is very visible).

Technically speaking, I would take this two general assumptions:

• One can typically stabilize overhead more weight than he/she can press;
• One can typically deadlift more than he/she can squat;

Each of the two is to be considered under normal conditions (i.e. not a raw or belted deadlift VS an equiped squat).

Now let's see the different testing lifts in the two "events" you're comparing (all weights and implements equal - 48 kg kettlebell):

• Beast Tamer: one arm overhead press (press), loaded pistol squat (squat), loaded pull up (not contested in S&S Sinister standard).
• S&S Sinister standard: one arm swing (balistic hinge - similar to a deadlift to some extent), Turkish get up (where the hardest part is to me the stabilization of the weight overhead).

Although it is true that the S&S Sinister adds a time component, it sill lacks one lift (two versus three). Moreover, if can work up to the total volume of swings, chances are he/she will be able to also compress time; on the other hand, going up in weight with the pull up requires specific programing.
Also, to me the skill set required to perform a good pistol is very different (and harder to master) from those needed for a perfect swing or get up, but this is personal.

All things considered, I'll say that to me they're not even comparable and Beast Tamer/Iron Maiden challenge takes the crown of the hardest between the two by a good margin.

EDIT: I don't know anyone that has completed both, but I'm pretty sure that guys like Zonin and Oliver Quinn (both Beast Tamers) or Elisa Vinante (Iron Maiden) can comfortably hit the respective Sinister standards.

 

[pet']

Hello,

As @Frank_IT said, they are very different and if you want to comapre strength, you have to use coefficient to take bodyweight into account. S&S and BT require their own training.

As @Frank_IT said, a lighter guy can do heavy / relatively swings, even comfortably: I weigh 64 and can swing @40 or 44. However, I have a max press @ 28 (since today !) For all the "heavy" folks I know (100kg or close), pressing 40 is "easy".

In absolute, yes they are stronger, in relative, no they are not.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[JeffC]

Beast Tamer is more difficult by far.

 

[taedoju]

Beast Tamer , as i Really suck at pressing...

 

[DavThew]

That moment when you realise Fabio Zonin is about your height and weight....
Well looks like I have some work to do!

 

[Brett Jones]

They are different.
S&S will challenge some on the conditioning aspect and others on the strength/get-up aspect
Beast Tamer/Iron Maiden is a mix of strength skills that catches folks at different areas - some struggle with the press, others the pull-up etc....

All depends on where you are in your training etc....

 

[Frank_IT]

That moment when you realise Fabio Zonin is about your height and weight....
Well looks like I have some work to do!

You must be quite the "undistructible concrete block like human being" then!
Plus, remembering some of your lifting numbers, it seems like you have more litle than some work to do!
Just to unnecessarely show how strong Zonin is, I think he's got 5 repetitions of back squat at almost 2.5 X bodyweight... That's some heavy lifting if you ask me!

 

[DavThew]

@Frank_IT I'm going off Fabio's most recent weight of 82kg, I am not sure I can get enough into me to hit that size at it's biggest.
But yes stocky is one word often used to describe my look .
It does at least provide good levers for lifting with.

 

[Harry Westgate]

Probably way out of my depth of knowledge here so feel free to tell me to butt out, but something to consider might be this:

S&S is a GPP programme (emphasis on 'G' for General), while the Beast Tamer is an event which one would need to prepare Specifically for ('Specifically' with a capital 'S' of course).

One can train S&S while having other athletic pursuits (I speak from experience), while reaching the Beast Tamer standards strikes me as something that would be hard (perhaps impossible for some) to do without cutting out virtually all other sport/physical training... It seems more like a powerlifting meet.

I.e. Beast Tamer perhaps might take more dedication (as in, only training for that one thing), while Sinister might take more time (as in, still progressing in tiny increments over a longer time without fear of true stagnation).

Just my uneducated thoughts...

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Harry Westgate

Just my uneducated thoughts...

You thoughts are not that uneducated, far from it IMHO !

S&S can perfectly be a stand alone program. Thus the progression will be pretty fast. Otherwise it can be an excellent support for any other activities you may have. It does not implies to cut off anything.

One can train S&S while having other athletic pursuits

I also followed it while training for free diving (well...free diving is just about breathing so is it really a sport...).

Succeed BT is a strength program in itself, not a GPP at all. Then you are more or less obliged to cut off other stuffs if you want to progress on it. Plus, the pull up test with the Beast can be achievable for light pleople, because they are traditionaly "better" at pull ups than heavier people. However pressing 48kg for someone who weighs only 65 or 68 is almost impossible IMO.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Frank_IT]

S&S is a GPP programme (emphasis on 'G' for General)

Well, not really, in my opinion... Let me explain better what I think!
Simple&Sinister is general preparedness up until Simple. Once one starts to pursuit Sinister, it becomes a very specific program of swings and get ups, in my opinion.

Again, the thing is the program is based on absolute numbers, which for somebody are a magic dragon. Almost any person in his full health can reach Simple, something I'm not so sure can be said about Sinister.
I agree with you that a normal person, and individual who doesn't train for a job, who practices a sport activity of his choice, can implement S&S in every other day of the week and still have enough gas to train something else, but again up until Simple.

From there on, the program becomes a lot more demanding, and sacrifices must be made, the weights go up into heavy territories and the volume doesn't change. There's just one point were this (magnificent) program stops being GPP and becomes specific, and to me it's after Simple (and it adds to the brilliancy of S&S, if you ask me).

General preparedness is to me being able to do some of everything, without any specific ability, that's were Simple will get you: you'll have awesome swings and get ups, which in turn will make your life easier in all the other four lifts of "the big 6". A heavy swing is a good starting point for lighter cleans and snatches, and a heavy TGU will bring you a press good enough to start a specific program and a decent kettlebell front squat (single or double bells). You'll also have a "starting point" in conditioning and, if warm ups and stretches have been done by the book, also in mobility.
Once you pass that, going up in weight will yeld diminishing returns in terms of general preparedness.

 

[El Cid]

Well, not really, in my opinion... Let me explain better what I think!
Simple&Sinister is general preparedness up until Simple. Once one starts to pursuit Sinister, it becomes a very specific program of swings and get ups, in my opinion.

Again, the thing is the program is based on absolute numbers, which for somebody are a magic dragon. Almost any person in his full health can reach Simple, something I'm not so sure can be said about Sinister.
I agree with you that a normal person, and individual who doesn't train for a job, who practices a sport activity of his choice, can implement S&S in every other day of the week and still have enough gas to train something else, but again up until Simple.

From there on, the program becomes a lot more demanding, and sacrifices must be made, the weights go up into heavy territories and the volume doesn't change. There's just one point were this (magnificent) program stops being GPP and becomes specific, and to me it's after Simple (and it adds to the brilliancy of S&S, if you ask me).

General preparedness is to me being able to do some of everything, without any specific ability, that's were Simple will get you: you'll have awesome swings and get ups, which in turn will make your life easier in all the other four lifts of "the big 6". A heavy swing is a good starting point for lighter cleans and snatches, and a heavy TGU will bring you a press good enough to start a specific program and a decent kettlebell front squat (single or double bells). You'll also have a "starting point" in conditioning and, if warm ups and stretches have been done by the book, also in mobility.
Once you pass that, going up in weight will yeld diminishing returns in terms of general preparedness.

I think if you add the qualifier of "...for most people" to your points about GPP vs SPP with S&S you are about spot on.

The reason I say this is that a fraction of people have a strength base so high and a conditioning base so deep that even Sinister is GPP for them. For the rest of us mere mortals I think you're about right that somewhere around Simple it stops being GPP.

 

[El Cid]

...and my opinion would be that Beast Tamer/Iron Maiden is more challenging and takes longer to train to ("for most people). ;-)

I'm trying to think of a person that would have a harder time TGUing a 48k than pressing a 48k and the only person I could picture is someone whose leg strength is very poor relative to upper body and/or someone with serious mobility issues in thoracic spine/shoulder girdle.

 

[Frank_IT]

@El Cid and this person would be an exception to the rule too.

You're right when you talk about people using Sinister as GPP, but the only individuals I know are professional instructors/athletes or people with extensive sport or lifting backgrounds. Without going too far from where I live, Alessandro (my SFGII) didn't quite get the limits of Simple and is actually able to hit it in 5 minutes for both swings and get ups, totaling 10 minutes of work plus one of rest between exercises. While training powerbuilding (or just powerlifting, I'm not sure) and heavily stressing the shoulders, he's glided through the 36, 40 and 44 kg without any specific training, in consecutive days and hitting the limits every time (this time with the "conventional" standards). He said that the 44 kg was quite challenging, though, and that he could need some time to reach Sinister (we're talking about few weeks really, maybe 2 or 3, in my opinion).

This person, though, is again an exception: he's a professional trainer who's got his own gym, is a SFL, a certified olyimpic lifting instructor of the highest level (which would like being an SFGII) by CONI (Olympic Italian National Commitee) oly lifting branch and a CrossFIT coach, with a 1RM in deadlift very near three times bodyweight, he's been training since he was like fifteen or something and he's 185 cm and over 80 kg of lean muscles... not an avarage Joe in my books!

 

[Lacie Brandts]

I have completed both the Sinister standard and the Iron Maiden. Both were challenging, but I really can't say that one was tougher than the other. Both challenged me in different ways. Along with the different physical challenges, they both required a different mental focus.

I think this will vary person to person, and each person's body type and athletic history will make a difference too.

 

[Steve Freides]

Iron Maiden and Sinister @Lacie Brandts, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

It's great to see you here!

-S-