It's already a sticky post in this section of the forum, Eric.@Steve Freides This post is really valuble. I think it merits consideration for "sticky of stickies" status.
-S-
It's already a sticky post in this section of the forum, Eric.@Steve Freides This post is really valuble. I think it merits consideration for "sticky of stickies" status.
To echo what @Antti said, the bench press can be tremendously useful for many, many people. I have a hard time deadlifting after I bench because I use my legs and glutes and abs so much in my bench press. Done right, the BP is a full body lift. And it is my main vehicle for improving my shoulder mobility right now - a big lateral arch and pulling the bar apart is very much "strength stretching," at least for some of us.The bench press is pretty useless for wrestling - limp legs hanging over the side of a chair - nope! Ain't gonna do it in a match. Mobility counts for a lot, and being mobile depends on asymmetrical load strength and also endurance-strength.
Great post!When Changing a Program Is, and Isn't, OK
Let's use a few of our most popular, successful programs at StrongFirst as examples. Consider three programs, listed in the order in which they were introduced:
- Power To The People!
- Right of Passage (from Enter the Kettlebell)
- Kettlebell Simple & Sinister
The first question one must ask is: What is/are the goal(s) of the program?
The second question one must ask is: How much, expressed as a percentage, of achieving the program's goal(s) is dependent on each of the program's lifts?
Let's examine each program individually.
NB: If you aren't familiar with these programs, tell someone who cares. Please buy the books and read them.
Power To The People
What is the goal of PTTP? It's very clear - strength, specifically limit strength as expressed by the maximum weight that can be moved for a low number of reps.
I believe I'm quoting Pavel when I say that 90% of PTTP is the deadlift, and 10% is the side press.
I think we're safe in saying that we can, within reason, adjust the press portion of PTTP. If we start playing with the deadlift, however, we are altering the very essence of the program and then we're no longer doing PTTP. Try the PTTP template but use the kettlebell military press instead - it works well. Likewise, add a third lift - try pullups, and do them after your presses and before your deadlifts. This also works well.
ROP
The ROP has multiple goals: strength, as expressed by a one- or low-rep, one-arm kettlebell military press and trained for directly, and which I'm calling 60% of the focus, and conditioning as expressed by a 10-minute snatch test and as trained by swings twice a week and snatches once a week, and which I'm calling the remaining 40%.
Can you change the conditioning portion of the ROP and still have a pressing strength program? I think you can. This is a fairly sophisticated call to make, but I think one can still increase work capacity by doing a lot of presses, and one can improve one's press by doing a lot of presses. Does the snatch, with it's similar finish position, contribute to pressing strength? I don't think it contributes much - the weight is usually the same, but the press gets easier near the top and is hardest in the middle. I don't think the snatch adds a lot to our press; some, yes, but not a lot.
Can you change the strength portion of the ROP and still have a conditioning program? I think that's harder because the snatch lockout benefits from the press training. A program focused on improving a 10-minute snatch test, in order to yield good results, might need to switch from two swing sessions and one snatch session per week to one swing session and two snatch sessions, or even three snatch sessions with swings performed after snatches.
Simple & Sinister
S & S also has multiple goals, but I think swings are the main focus, specifically a particular type of low-weight, high-force swing that clearly improves endurance and strength-endurance, and also yields strength improvements via mechanisms not yet fully understood. I think strength portion of S&S, the getup, is perhaps 20%, and the swing 80%.
Can you change the strength portion, the getups, and still have S & S's conditioning benefits? I think you can, and we have forum members who've followed S&S-like programs with less of a focus on the getup that prove this point. Can you substitute another strength move for the getup? Yes, e.g., try the military press and, at the end of each set, with the weight still at the top, perform a windmill or bent press.
Can you change the swing portion of S & S and still have a strength program built around the getup? I don't think just a daily dozen or so getups is sufficient volume over the long term to build the kind of strength we're after at StrongFirst; we would need more volume, but the getup doesn't lend itself to high volume, so another approach would be best and not a strength-focused modification of S & S.
What You Should Not Do
Each of the modifications discussed above tries to make the connection between cause and effect in its respective program, and to preserve that connection in order to preserve the good results these programs are known to produce.
You should not, however, tamper with the basic design of the program's focus that you intend to keep. E.g., don't turn PTTP into a three-times-a-week-with-a-heavy-day program; that's no longer PTTP or a modification of PTTP, it's taking a known quantity, a proven program, and simply breaking it and then hoping for the best. Someone else has already written a three-times-a-week-with-a-heavy-day strength program; go find that and use it instead.
-S-
Sorry.Have you ever had coaching for the bench press, read about the technique, or actually trained the lift? Or seen how useful it is for athletes, whether you're a sprinter or a shot putter or a football player or what?
And I'm afraid this isn't a singular case on the forum, and I'm sad for it.
Thank you for explaining that to me. I wasn't inclined to get into it since it looked rather narrow in usefulness, and since I never went far with it (when younger), I wouldn't know how good it actually is. I think it's important in the kendo world.To echo what @Antti said, the bench press can be tremendously useful for many, many people. I have a hard time deadlifting after I bench because I use my legs and glutes and abs so much in my bench press. Done right, the BP is a full body lift. And it is my main vehicle for improving my shoulder mobility right now - a big lateral arch and pulling the bar apart is very much "strength stretching," at least for some of us.
-S-
All progress depends on mistakes. No apology necessary.Sorry for my ignorance.
Some moves and many training programmes I'll never get to, even some pretty common and standard ones. At least now I've got _something_ real that works for me (that being S&S).All progress depends on mistakes. No apology necessary.
-S-
Thank you for reminding me of this. Yes, limit strength needs symmetrical loading, and this is the best way to get the strongest possible. As long as we train to apply this strength in asymmetrical ways, it's unbeatable!Hello,
+1 @Kozushi
A baseline of bipedal / symetrical strength (DL, squats, etc...) is necessary do develop limit strength. Nonetheless, this "raw strength" has to have a transfer to the activity. We need to train for specifics, if one is looking for better performance. As soon as your sport requires a certain dose of unipedal move (combat sport, trail, etc...) asymetrical loads and single limb moves (lunges, pistols, oa push ups, etc...) must be part of the training program. Most of the sportsmen who have a baseline of strength but who build upon them usually perform "better than average".
Kind regards,
Pet'
The combination can't be beat. I don't think it's the combination of barbell and kettlebell that's the formula, although my favorite minimalist program is that. I think it's the combination of one- and two-arm work, of building a strong core and side-to-side symmetry through one-arm work combined with building "brute" strength with a barbell. It's worth noting that PTTP features a one-armed overhead barbell press combined with a traditional deadlift.I guess barbells rule the day.
Thank you. I would not have guessed that. Good point about PTTP's mix of symmetry and asymmetry. Seeing my barbell friend _starting_ his kettlebell journey with sets of 100 snatches with the 32kg bell made an impression on me. He is my height/weight nearly exactly, so I should have the same potential. It takes years to build that kind of strength though. I never did deadlifts for more than I think 6 months-ish at a time.The combination can't be beat. I don't think it's the combination of barbell and kettlebell that's the formula, although my favorite minimalist program is that. I think it's the combination of one- and two-arm work, of building a strong core and side-to-side symmetry through one-arm work combined with building "brute" strength with a barbell. It's worth noting that PTTP features a one-armed overhead barbell press combined with a traditional deadlift.
My current training revolves around the three barbell powerlifts, but I keep some one-arm swings in my program, and also straddle deadlifts which, although not one-arm, do require me to work the lift both ways. For a while there I was doing uneven ring pullups, again not one-arm but still different side-to-side and requiring performing the movement both ways.
JMO, YMMV.
-S-
FWIW: A 32kg TGU did more for my BJJ than a 2x BW DL did. If I were more of a thrower, the reverse might have been the case.Viable, yes, provided we remember the lion and the whale story from S&S.
Interesting to contemplate the carryover for a bodyweight getup as compared to a 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift ....
-S-
I believe that the most difficult part is that many times we are feeling obliged to combine things. A program as written is not "enough" for us. And we always want more.
Sounds great! I did not mean any offense or discomfort. Of course, if it works for you it is fine. I have seen many friends of mine wanting to do everything and do tons of volume leading to overtraining. If you have a balanced schedule that is coordinated with family plans then this is perfect! Keep up the good work!I have to do some program editing because for me it is fitting the program within my weekly schedule. My wife and I work out Sun and Thurs and my kids and I work out Tues and Sat. So I need a program I can run alongside my wife (primarily barbell-focused) and one I can run with my kids (primarily kettlebell) and the two programs can not interfere with each other. Kinda hard to do and you have to make some compromises.
As to how long to run a program. I usually run something for 10 weeks, since that is our school term in Australia, unless I have an injury which I work around or change something. I am not apt to
Sounds great! I did not mean any offense or discomfort.
This is wonderful. I have a similar situation that has really worked out for me. I go to Planet Fitness 1 day per week with my wife, to spend time with her. At 1st I did not take the workouts too seriously. But I've really learned to incorporate the dumbell and machine based hypertrophy/bodybuilding (fluff and buff) day into my weekly strength training program. It has become additive.I have been choosing to work out suboptimally, simply for the sake of keeping the 2 days working out with my wife and 2 days working out with my kids. Keeping that schedule is more important to me than squatting 4 plates or benching 3.