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Other/Mixed When Changing a Program Is, and Isn't, OK

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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The bench press is pretty useless for wrestling - limp legs hanging over the side of a chair - nope! Ain't gonna do it in a match. Mobility counts for a lot, and being mobile depends on asymmetrical load strength and also endurance-strength.
To echo what @Antti said, the bench press can be tremendously useful for many, many people. I have a hard time deadlifting after I bench because I use my legs and glutes and abs so much in my bench press. Done right, the BP is a full body lift. And it is my main vehicle for improving my shoulder mobility right now - a big lateral arch and pulling the bar apart is very much "strength stretching," at least for some of us.

-S-
 
When Changing a Program Is, and Isn't, OK

Let's use a few of our most popular, successful programs at StrongFirst as examples. Consider three programs, listed in the order in which they were introduced:

- Power To The People!

- Right of Passage (from Enter the Kettlebell)

- Kettlebell Simple & Sinister

The first question one must ask is: What is/are the goal(s) of the program?

The second question one must ask is: How much, expressed as a percentage, of achieving the program's goal(s) is dependent on each of the program's lifts?

Let's examine each program individually.

NB: If you aren't familiar with these programs, tell someone who cares. :) Please buy the books and read them.


Power To The People

What is the goal of PTTP? It's very clear - strength, specifically limit strength as expressed by the maximum weight that can be moved for a low number of reps.

I believe I'm quoting Pavel when I say that 90% of PTTP is the deadlift, and 10% is the side press.

I think we're safe in saying that we can, within reason, adjust the press portion of PTTP. If we start playing with the deadlift, however, we are altering the very essence of the program and then we're no longer doing PTTP. Try the PTTP template but use the kettlebell military press instead - it works well. Likewise, add a third lift - try pullups, and do them after your presses and before your deadlifts. This also works well.


ROP

The ROP has multiple goals: strength, as expressed by a one- or low-rep, one-arm kettlebell military press and trained for directly, and which I'm calling 60% of the focus, and conditioning as expressed by a 10-minute snatch test and as trained by swings twice a week and snatches once a week, and which I'm calling the remaining 40%.

Can you change the conditioning portion of the ROP and still have a pressing strength program? I think you can. This is a fairly sophisticated call to make, but I think one can still increase work capacity by doing a lot of presses, and one can improve one's press by doing a lot of presses. Does the snatch, with it's similar finish position, contribute to pressing strength? I don't think it contributes much - the weight is usually the same, but the press gets easier near the top and is hardest in the middle. I don't think the snatch adds a lot to our press; some, yes, but not a lot.

Can you change the strength portion of the ROP and still have a conditioning program? I think that's harder because the snatch lockout benefits from the press training. A program focused on improving a 10-minute snatch test, in order to yield good results, might need to switch from two swing sessions and one snatch session per week to one swing session and two snatch sessions, or even three snatch sessions with swings performed after snatches.


Simple & Sinister

S & S also has multiple goals, but I think swings are the main focus, specifically a particular type of low-weight, high-force swing that clearly improves endurance and strength-endurance, and also yields strength improvements via mechanisms not yet fully understood. I think strength portion of S&S, the getup, is perhaps 20%, and the swing 80%.

Can you change the strength portion, the getups, and still have S & S's conditioning benefits? I think you can, and we have forum members who've followed S&S-like programs with less of a focus on the getup that prove this point. Can you substitute another strength move for the getup? Yes, e.g., try the military press and, at the end of each set, with the weight still at the top, perform a windmill or bent press.

Can you change the swing portion of S & S and still have a strength program built around the getup? I don't think just a daily dozen or so getups is sufficient volume over the long term to build the kind of strength we're after at StrongFirst; we would need more volume, but the getup doesn't lend itself to high volume, so another approach would be best and not a strength-focused modification of S & S.


What You Should Not Do

Each of the modifications discussed above tries to make the connection between cause and effect in its respective program, and to preserve that connection in order to preserve the good results these programs are known to produce.

You should not, however, tamper with the basic design of the program's focus that you intend to keep. E.g., don't turn PTTP into a three-times-a-week-with-a-heavy-day program; that's no longer PTTP or a modification of PTTP, it's taking a known quantity, a proven program, and simply breaking it and then hoping for the best. Someone else has already written a three-times-a-week-with-a-heavy-day strength program; go find that and use it instead.

-S-
Great post!
Only about the get up, you can add more volume to it by getting more time under tension AKA doing longer and more controlled get ups!
Thanks for your post it helps a lot!
 
Have you ever had coaching for the bench press, read about the technique, or actually trained the lift? Or seen how useful it is for athletes, whether you're a sprinter or a shot putter or a football player or what?

And I'm afraid this isn't a singular case on the forum, and I'm sad for it.
Sorry.

I was in my narrow judo mats frame of mind there where pressing straight out is just stalling, if anything at all. Judoka are notorious for having zero pecs! It's about 99% just pulling! Maybe this is why we really should bench press a whole lot more! It might help with our posture too, which tends to get quite hunched when not corrected with something else.

The bench press is one of the key, best, most important lifts.

Also, and this is also from personal experience, the strongest people on the mats are the heavy barbell athletes, bar none. No one even comes close.
 
To echo what @Antti said, the bench press can be tremendously useful for many, many people. I have a hard time deadlifting after I bench because I use my legs and glutes and abs so much in my bench press. Done right, the BP is a full body lift. And it is my main vehicle for improving my shoulder mobility right now - a big lateral arch and pulling the bar apart is very much "strength stretching," at least for some of us.

-S-
Thank you for explaining that to me. I wasn't inclined to get into it since it looked rather narrow in usefulness, and since I never went far with it (when younger), I wouldn't know how good it actually is. I think it's important in the kendo world.

I guess for a lot of people here (who go to gyms or who have a proper home gym) knowledge of things like bench press or back squats is just absolutely the ABCs. I'm one of these weird people who hasn't gotten into exercise through gyms - just through whatever was at the judo school or what I had at home, so I'm missing some basic vocabulary.

...which is why it's good I keep coming here to fill in my gaps.

Sorry for my ignorance. :(
 
Hello,

+1 @Kozushi
A baseline of bipedal / symetrical strength (DL, squats, etc...) is necessary do develop limit strength. Nonetheless, this "raw strength" has to have a transfer to the activity. We need to train for specifics, if one is looking for better performance. As soon as your sport requires a certain dose of unipedal move (combat sport, trail, etc...) asymetrical loads and single limb moves (lunges, pistols, oa push ups, etc...) must be part of the training program. Most of the sportsmen who have a baseline of strength but who build upon them usually perform "better than average".

Kind regards,

Pet'
Thank you for reminding me of this. Yes, limit strength needs symmetrical loading, and this is the best way to get the strongest possible. As long as we train to apply this strength in asymmetrical ways, it's unbeatable!

...but it takes a lot of special equipment. That's the downside of course, making the kettlebell pretty practical for most of us. I even think some barbell lifters add kettlebell swings into their programming.

I'm looking forward to trying out a number of things when the judo mats open back up someday. I think differently now about strength than before the pandemic.
 
I just wanted to add for @Antti that there used to be lots of guys who'd show up to train with pretty much only the bench press and curls in their repertoire, and I soon caught onto that set just not cutting it for grappling strength. They'd have really big biceps and pecs, but their practical strength just wasn't there, I suppose because they didn't have the lower back strength to support it.
 
I remember a barbell athlete US (Texas high school level) football coach showing up at our mixed martial arts gym to train a few times. (An extremely congenial person and I was really upset I lost his contact information!!!) He had hardly any martial arts training that I was aware of at least, but he was invincible on the mats. No one, no matter their experience level nor their own fitness level, had a hope against him.
Another fellow was similar (he pulls nearly 700lbs!!!), although he actually stayed and trained with us for several months. He worked as a bouncer, but like I said, his martial arts background wasn't particularly extensive. He was also invincible.
All of us guys there were amateurs though (although some of us were "good amateurs". I'll be a bit stuck up and call myself a "good amateur"); I'd be fascinated to see these intelligent and athletic strongmen face off against professional BJJ or judo athletes. Amateurs though - nope! No hope!

Ah, a few months into when I had started S&S I got to test out my strength against the second individual, and I noticed a marked difference in our relative strengths. He was still way better than me on the mats, but I had gotten a lot better in comparison to before. I could feel the improvement through S&S (it was early on though) but still "not enough" by any means.

If we're talking strength, there is no debate. Limit strength with the barbell (or whatever else) rules _by far_.
I'd guess though (been at judo since 1988) that the practical strength of these two individuals was coming more from things like heavy squats and deadlifts than from bench pressing or curling. I'd guess that these latter moves were the "cherry on the pie" for their strength more than anything.

Just training bench press and curls, like the "bro science" guys used to do back in "the day" didn't seem to be too effective.
 
Because I'm a stubborn and stuck up "fool" I still want to see how strong I can get relative to the "truly strong" (barbell people) with my kettlebell training. Interestingly, the second individual mentioned above has switched over to kettlebell training during the pandemic and we've been having some fun talking about it. He has already put me to shame though since he started doing double snatches with the 32kg right off the bat! Hahaha! Yeah, I guess barbells rule the day. :)
 
I guess barbells rule the day.
The combination can't be beat. I don't think it's the combination of barbell and kettlebell that's the formula, although my favorite minimalist program is that. I think it's the combination of one- and two-arm work, of building a strong core and side-to-side symmetry through one-arm work combined with building "brute" strength with a barbell. It's worth noting that PTTP features a one-armed overhead barbell press combined with a traditional deadlift.

My current training revolves around the three barbell powerlifts, but I keep some one-arm swings in my program, and also straddle deadlifts which, although not one-arm, do require me to work the lift both ways. For a while there I was doing uneven ring pullups, again not one-arm but still different side-to-side and requiring performing the movement both ways.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
The combination can't be beat. I don't think it's the combination of barbell and kettlebell that's the formula, although my favorite minimalist program is that. I think it's the combination of one- and two-arm work, of building a strong core and side-to-side symmetry through one-arm work combined with building "brute" strength with a barbell. It's worth noting that PTTP features a one-armed overhead barbell press combined with a traditional deadlift.

My current training revolves around the three barbell powerlifts, but I keep some one-arm swings in my program, and also straddle deadlifts which, although not one-arm, do require me to work the lift both ways. For a while there I was doing uneven ring pullups, again not one-arm but still different side-to-side and requiring performing the movement both ways.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
Thank you. I would not have guessed that. Good point about PTTP's mix of symmetry and asymmetry. Seeing my barbell friend _starting_ his kettlebell journey with sets of 100 snatches with the 32kg bell made an impression on me. He is my height/weight nearly exactly, so I should have the same potential. It takes years to build that kind of strength though. I never did deadlifts for more than I think 6 months-ish at a time.
I'm always learning here, so much fun! :)
I can keep competing in judo and kendo for a few more decades yet. No reason I shouldn't maximize my strength potential.
 
Viable, yes, provided we remember the lion and the whale story from S&S.

Interesting to contemplate the carryover for a bodyweight getup as compared to a 2.5 x bodyweight deadlift ....

-S-
FWIW: A 32kg TGU did more for my BJJ than a 2x BW DL did. If I were more of a thrower, the reverse might have been the case.
 
I believe that the most difficult part is that many times we are feeling obliged to combine things. A program as written is not "enough" for us. And we always want more. Maybe the smartest approach is to keep our most important lifts to maintenance and follow this "other" specialization program that we want to focus on. For example, let's say that I run a powerlifting program for a while and now I want to focus on KB training let's say S&S. The smartest approach would be to dedicate a maintenance day for the 2 lifts (example bench, squat) and devote the rest of the day to S&S for 3 months let's say. Then reassess and act accordingly.
 
I believe that the most difficult part is that many times we are feeling obliged to combine things. A program as written is not "enough" for us. And we always want more.

I have to do some program editing because for me it is fitting the program within my weekly schedule. My wife and I work out Sun and Thurs and my kids and I work out Tues and Sat. So I need a program I can run alongside my wife (primarily barbell-focused) and one I can run with my kids (primarily kettlebell) and the two programs can not interfere with each other. Kinda hard to do and you have to make some compromises.

As to how long to run a program. I usually run something for 10 weeks, since that is our school term in Australia, unless I have an injury which I work around or change something. I am not apt to
 
I have to do some program editing because for me it is fitting the program within my weekly schedule. My wife and I work out Sun and Thurs and my kids and I work out Tues and Sat. So I need a program I can run alongside my wife (primarily barbell-focused) and one I can run with my kids (primarily kettlebell) and the two programs can not interfere with each other. Kinda hard to do and you have to make some compromises.

As to how long to run a program. I usually run something for 10 weeks, since that is our school term in Australia, unless I have an injury which I work around or change something. I am not apt to
Sounds great! I did not mean any offense or discomfort. Of course, if it works for you it is fine. I have seen many friends of mine wanting to do everything and do tons of volume leading to overtraining. If you have a balanced schedule that is coordinated with family plans then this is perfect! Keep up the good work!
 
Sounds great! I did not mean any offense or discomfort.

Didn't take any, your comment made me think about why I was choosing to workout as I was and weirdly I have been choosing to work out suboptimally, simply for the sake of keeping the 2 days working out with my wife and 2 days working out with my kids. Keeping that schedule is more important to me than squatting 4 plates or benching 3.
 
I have been choosing to work out suboptimally, simply for the sake of keeping the 2 days working out with my wife and 2 days working out with my kids. Keeping that schedule is more important to me than squatting 4 plates or benching 3.
This is wonderful. I have a similar situation that has really worked out for me. I go to Planet Fitness 1 day per week with my wife, to spend time with her. At 1st I did not take the workouts too seriously. But I've really learned to incorporate the dumbell and machine based hypertrophy/bodybuilding (fluff and buff) day into my weekly strength training program. It has become additive.

"Optimal" is irrelevant in the long term (maybe it is important in the short term, a 4 week program to maximize your bench press, for example). Consistancy is how you make progress. Accumulating years and decades of stress adaptation, a little at a time, day by day, week by week, until 1 day years later you realize you are doing a '"medium" set of reps with your old max. It kind of sneaks up on you.
 
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