Other/Mixed When to invest in a new technique?

[Ap0c]

Today I was messing around with my deadlift stance during warm-up. I put my feet a bit narrower than usual. This made things feel a bit more difficult than my usual stance. I considered using this new stance for my work sets since I am at the beginning of a mesocycle, but I resolved to put my feet back to their usual position during the work sets.

One might say, "well if it made it harder, why would you even consider it?" However, it occurrs to me that sometimes a technique might feel harder at first but then perhaps when you invest in it, it might take you further than your old technique. For instance, I have never squatted low bar, and I bet if I went to squat low bar with what I consider to be a heavy high bar weight, I would be uncomfortable, perform it incorrectly, and it would be harder at first. But I also bet if I practiced low bar, I could eventually squat more with low bar than high bar. In this particular example, I don't care to switch to low bar because I think it overlaps with deadlift more significantly than high bar, increasing my erector volume beyond where I want it to be. Since I don't compete, there is no point in me making that tradeoff if my high bar is happily going up.

So, the point of this thread is, how do you (or can you even) know when it is worth switching techniques, assuming your current techinque is not thrashing you up?

 

[3letterslong]

OK, I am definitely not an expert here, but I think that's where the value of having well-defined goals comes in. One thing I love about Westside is that every single move you do -- the techniques of your main lifts, your supplementary lifts and your accessory lifts, even your warm-ups -- are all dictated by your goal lifts and the weak points getting in the way.

I remember Pavel writing that if your accessory lifts aren't helping your main lifts go up you should ditch them. I think that's also a good guidepost for technique changes -- do they help get you to your goal?

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Technical changes, even when it's a change for the better, are often 'harder' because you're going to be using different/more muscles (and/or activating them differently). If you've engrained bad technique, you might be able to lift more with it not because it's stronger, but simply because you've trained it - a change to better technique will likely mean you are weaker in the short term, but long term it will lead to better outcomes.
Kinda related, but if you work with kids who've been successful at a young age (often because they were aggressive and had early growth spurts), they've often engrained some really bad habits, and fixing those so that they can continue to improve performance is really hard...

Whether or not this change is for the better (for you the OP), I don't know.

 

[Anna C]

how do you (or can you even) know when it is worth switching techniques, assuming your current techinque is not thrashing you up?

I would divide this into three categories:

1. Changing exercise form selection (high bar vs. low bar squat, sumo vs. conventional deadlift, etc.)
2. Form correction (eliminating something that's generally considered to be a bad habit even if you do it well and perform well that way)
3. Other subtle technique nuances

And the answer would be different for each of these.

 

[Antti]

I think it's a good idea to switch between different forms of lifts for blocks in any case. So through the years everything gets tried out

 

[Ap0c]

Awesome, I really like these responses. Thanks everyone.

Kind of combining some themes in this thread with Anna's categorization and some Dan John inspired thinking, it seems to me like (1) and (3) are maybe worth exploring during a "park bench" style program, or at the beginning of a "bus bench" program. On the other hand, (2) can be a more major course correction that's worth addressing sooner rather than later. I suppose (1) could be in the middle of a bus bench style program if you already know the effect of the new lift on you.

But, fundamentally, it seems like it falls down to some level of experimentation.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Today I was messing around with my deadlift stance during warm-up. I put my feet a bit narrower than usual. This made things feel a bit more difficult than my usual stance. I considered using this new stance for my work sets since I am at the beginning of a mesocycle, but I resolved to put my feet back to their usual position during the work sets.

Varying An Exercise

Varying an exercise can be as simple as changing the Squat Width Stance Width, going from a High Bar Squat ot Low Bar Squat, going from a Wide Grip Bench Press to a Medium or Narrow Grip, going from a Narrow Stance Deadlift to a Medium or Wide Stance.

Doing so work the muscle in the movement from a different angle. This is an effective method for increasing strength as well increasing muscle mass.

...sometimes a technique might feel harder at first but then perhaps when you invest in it, it might take you further than your old technique.

Changing Exercises

Research shows that modifying an exercise, as noted above, works it from a different angle. This increases strength and size; dependent on how your program is written and performed.

CHANGES IN EXERCISES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN IN LOADING SCHEMES TO IMPROVE MUSCLE STRENGTH

Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength - PubMed

This study investigated the effects of varying strength exercises and loading scheme on muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) and maximum strength after 4 strength training loading schemes: constant intensity and constant exercise (CICE), constant intensity and varied exercise (CIVE), varied...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

ABSTRACT

Our findings suggest: (a) CIVE (Constant Intensity-Varied Exercise) is more efficient to produce strength gains for physically active individuals; (b) as long as the training intensity reaches an alleged threshold, muscle hypertrophy is similar regardless of the training intensity and exercise variation.

Maximum Dynamic Strength (1 Repetition Maximum)

The training protocol that varied the exercises but not the intensity (CIVE) was the most efficient in increasing maximum strength among all of the training groups.


DISCUSSION

The training regimen in which the intensity was constant and the exercises were varied (i.e., CIVE) demonstrated greater strength gains when compared with those groups that did not vary the exercise selection (i.e., VICE and CICE), and the one that varied both exercises and training intensities (i.e., VIVE), over the 12-week training period.

In summary, our data suggest that constant intensity training with varied exercises (CIVE) is more efficient to produce strength gains for physically active individuals.

Technique Development

Varying how an exercise is perfomed increases stregth, which will carry over to strength in your previous Exercise Technique.

However, it will not improve you previous Exercise Technique; which has been covered other post on StrongFirst.

Technique Development for a 1 Retition Max is optmaily developed by...

1) 80% Loads of 1 Repetition Max Training

2) 1-2 Repetitions Per Set

Perfoming Low Repetitions in Technique Training means the focus is on the Movement when you are fresh; which Technique is optimized.

3) Rest Periods between 1-2 Repetition Sets needs be long enough to ensure you are fresh and you Technique is optimal.

4) Technique Training needs to be performed at the beginning of a Workout or on a Separate Day.

5) Muiscle Fatigue

Once Muscle Fatigue occurs on a Technique Training Day, Stop!

Continuing once Muscle Fatigue sets in develops and reinforces Poor Technique.

When Technique is altered it become a completely different exercise.

how do you (or can you even) know when it is worth switching techniques,

Periodization Training

Periodization Training is a Planned Training Cycles consisting or a certain number or weeks.

Each week the Load is increases. In the final week, the exercise is pushed to the limit or close to it.

Then begin a...

New Periodization Training Cycle

The New Periodization Training Cycle starts off with something light and easy. The Load is increased each week until the final week, where it is pushed to the limit or close to it.

The New Periodization Training Cycle is a good place to "Switch Techniques". This means that you are Changing the Exercise, working the Muscles from a Different Angle; which increases strength and size.

Summary

1) Periodization Training Cycles

This is the underlying mechanism that athletes in all sports used to make improvement in their sports performance.

Periodization Training work for everyone!

It is is a Cyclical Cyclethat progressively increase the stress/trauma on the muscles.

Once the final week of a Periodization Training Cycle is completed, it is followed by a New Periodization Training Cycle that starts of easy. Doing so, produces...

Active Recovery

Recovery is where strength and size gain are made.

Active Recovery in the New Training Cycle increases blood flow to the muscles, which promotes faster recovery.

2) Varying Exercises

Making slight changes in how you perform an exercise, allows you to work it from a different angle; which increases strength and size.

3) Technique Training is only developed when it is part of a Training Plan.

Technique Training needs to be trained at the beginning of a Workout or on a Separate Day.

The information above provides the Technique Training Protocol that needs to be implemented.

 

[North Coast Miller]

So, the point of this thread is, how do you (or can you even) know when it is worth switching techniques, assuming your current techinque is not thrashing you up?

Always keep tweaking and testing a few reps here and there. Some exercises will have better effect depending on prior development, skeletal structure etc.

I personally am always shifting around my row and high pull variants.

 

[Ap0c]

Always keep tweaking and testing a few reps here and there. Some exercises will have better effect depending on prior development, skeletal structure etc.

I personally am always shifting around my row and high pull variants.

I generally agree with this sentiment and make minor tweaks here and there, especially if they make things feel noticeably better instantaneously. The question is more geared towards tweaks that feel awkward at first but have some physical or empirical motivation for being supposed as "better." In this case the answer I'm coming to is that either your physical model of yourself is extremely accurate and you just know from logical deduction, or, perhaps what is more often encountered, you just have to ride a cycle out and see where it takes you.

I guess I'm still of the mindset that every cycle is precious and I better not waste one on mistakes, but of course this type of risk aversion is what prevents you from learning what you need to learn to succeed.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I generally agree with this sentiment and make minor tweaks here and there, especially if they make things feel noticeably better instantaneously. The question is more geared towards tweaks that feel awkward at first but have some physical or empirical motivation for being supposed as "better." In this case the answer I'm coming to is that either your physical model of yourself is extremely accurate and you just know from logical deduction, or, perhaps what is more often encountered, you just have to ride a cycle out and see where it takes you.

I guess I'm still of the mindset that every cycle is precious and I better not waste one on mistakes, but of course this type of risk aversion is what prevents you from learning what you need to learn to succeed.

Is good to periodically swap exercises on a common theme. Beware of “forcing” exercises into an existing, functioning scheme though.

Also beware of exercises that have long learning curves to safely or effectively execute. The list of ones that fit that description AND have good carryover to general expression is quite short in my experience.

You are almost always better off working on variations on a theme, with a trend toward simplicity. The only real exception to that is for entertainment value.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I posted this the other day on the book of faces and it is in line with the discussion

"One cycle is often used to dial in your technique and that may mean just 1-2 details. The goal of that cycle isn't necessarily to hit a PR but to actually build in the technique til it becomes second nature.. then we add another detail or two.."

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The question is more geared towards tweaks that feel awkward at first but have some physical or empirical motivation for being supposed as "better."

Technique Changes

Initially, any changes in the Technical Exercise Movement going to feel awkard compared to how you have been performing it.

The Two Complaints

1) It doesn't feel right.

My reply to that is, "Keep doing (practicing) it until it does feel right."

2) Decrease In Strength

Constantly performing a Movement right or wrong, increases Strength in it.

With any change in the Technique Exercise Movement, amount to taking One Step Backward so that you end up taking Two Steps Forward.

As you stated, this "Pervents you from learning what you need to succeed."

I'm still of the mindset that every cycle is precious and I better not waste one on mistakes, but of course this type of risk aversion is what prevents you from learning what you need to learn to succeed.

Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing.
Einstein

The Take Home Message it that no matter how smart you are, some educated "Trial and Error" is essential to the learning process.

Examples

1)Gravity Bending Light

Einstein initially screwed up the math on this. It took him about two years to figure it out and get it right. PBS TV had an intersting documentary on this, years ago.

2) The Morpus Moon Lander

Years ago, NBC News stated, "This (testing the Moon Lander) is what a Million Dollars look like on Fire".

The NBC New then stated that NASA build Failure into their Budget. They realize that Failure is part of the forumla for success.



3) Alexander Gram Bell

As per Bell, he viewed unsuccessful experiments as eliminating what doesn't work and moving closer to finding out what will work.

4) Personally

Years ago, I applied a new approach to my training: Post Activiation Postenstition Training, PAP.

My Deadlift damatically increased. That primarily because I accidently optimally programmed the Training Protocol.

I then decided to modify my PAP Training Program. After a year of my New PAP Training Program, my Deadlift dropped back down to where it orginally was.

Baking A Cake

I looked at my New PAP Training Program like baking a cake. I had all the right ingredients. However, I need to figure out the amount to use bake the cake right.

I modified the "PAP Ingredients". In doing so, my Deadlift when approximately 25 lbs more that my previous Personal Best.

Summary

Part of the Learning Process, as you stated, at some point revolves around Trial and Error; eliminating what doesn't work and moving closer to what does work.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

"One cycle is often used to dial in your technique and that may mean just 1-2 details. The goal of that cycle isn't necessarily to hit a PR but to actually build in the technique til it becomes second nature.. then we add another detail or two.."

Technique Training

Let's address this once more.

1) For 1 Repetition Strength Development

Load of 80% or 1 Repetition Max are performed at the beginning of a Training Workout or on a Separate Day.

2) Repetitions

1-2 Repetition Per Set are performed with the focus only on Technique.

3) Rest Periods

Rest Periods need between Sets need to be long enough to that the muscle are fresh for each Repetition.

4) Muscle Fatigue

Once Muscle Fatigue occurs in Technique Training. Stop.

Continuing developes and reinforce Poor Technique.

Auxiliary Exercises

Increasing Strengh in a Technical Movement is developed with Auxiliary Exercise that are similar in nature to it.

Auxiliary Exercises need to be push to the limit or near to it in the Final Week of a Periodization Training Cycle.

In other word, go for a New PR in that exercise.