Iron_Man_02181987
Level 3 Valued Member
I posted a question about when to shoulder pack ok now I want to know when to NOT shoulder pack? Sorry if I am beating a dead horse.
Old Forum When to NOT shoulder pack?
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yorkshirecomrade
Level 5 Valued Member
My suggestion would be to NOT shoulder pack during...
Explosive/plyometric upper body work
Explosive/plyometric upper body work
I'm not sure I agree Yorkshire comrade. The issue with not shoulder packing with explosive work is that the act of shoulder packing creates space in the joint so that the joint isn't in danger. If you're bouncing around then you have a real capacity gut hurt yourself. I'd want a very specific situation to not shoulder pack when using decent force and I'm can't think of a strength application off the top of my head.
There may be some athletic endeavours where an unpacked shoulder is advantageous, but I don't think it's a good practise with regards to strength.
There may be some athletic endeavours where an unpacked shoulder is advantageous, but I don't think it's a good practise with regards to strength.
yorkshirecomrade
Level 5 Valued Member
No, I agree Piers. I didn't explain myself well. You used an important word, athletic. Athletic type movements combined with high endurance work like burpees is the type of activity I was referring to. Maybe even then, people or yourself might disagree.
I agree though, I can't think of any exercise in the strength bracket where shoulder packing is not a good idea. Athletic/endurance scenarios, maybe so. I don't know what scenarios though.....?
I agree though, I can't think of any exercise in the strength bracket where shoulder packing is not a good idea. Athletic/endurance scenarios, maybe so. I don't know what scenarios though.....?
KettlebellBlackbelt
Level 1 Valued Member
Not the type of strength that most think of here, but there are two examples that come to mind...
In Boxing, fighters commonly raise their shoulders and tuck their chin behind them to help protect it from blows.
In jujitsu, not packing your shoulders... Actually bringing them closer towards the ears helps by making it more difficult for your opponent to apply a choke. There are also techniques with unpacked shoulder movements that can actually help you to escape certain types of chokes.
I once brought two 11-12 year old students to a jujitsu clinic. They attracted a crowd of adult black belts who were amazed that these kids could effortlessly escape from a fully grown adult applying full strength chokes. It was humorous seeing a small line of adults waiting try to choke these little kids.
When teaching this, I would crack jokes to parents that they had probably wanted to choke out their kid many times. (Think Homer and Bart Simpson.) However now the kids knew how to effortlessly escape.
In Boxing, fighters commonly raise their shoulders and tuck their chin behind them to help protect it from blows.
In jujitsu, not packing your shoulders... Actually bringing them closer towards the ears helps by making it more difficult for your opponent to apply a choke. There are also techniques with unpacked shoulder movements that can actually help you to escape certain types of chokes.
I once brought two 11-12 year old students to a jujitsu clinic. They attracted a crowd of adult black belts who were amazed that these kids could effortlessly escape from a fully grown adult applying full strength chokes. It was humorous seeing a small line of adults waiting try to choke these little kids.
When teaching this, I would crack jokes to parents that they had probably wanted to choke out their kid many times. (Think Homer and Bart Simpson.) However now the kids knew how to effortlessly escape.
B.Hetzler
Level 3 Valued Member
Jason,
I think we are trying to look at 2 different things. The 2 examples you give of the boxer and jujitsu athletes have each getting into a defensive position - a natural startle instinct for self preservation. Walk into a dark room and someone jumps out and yells "Boo". The natural instinct is that of flexion - flex the spine, neck, hips, and pull the shoulders forward. Natural self preservation - same as getting hit or choked out.
Shoulder packing is the opposite - stabilize the shoulder for some kind of movement. I think your examples are spot on with what is happening, but the intent is where the difference lies.
The old school scapular punch or push up with a plus are 2 examples of pointless anti-shoulder packing. I think those in the SFG community can see the flaw in training those two positions.
I can't think of any time where upperbody movement is the goal where not packing the shoulder would be appropriate - outside of some very specific sport skills/sport related positions (like your 2 examples).
I think we are trying to look at 2 different things. The 2 examples you give of the boxer and jujitsu athletes have each getting into a defensive position - a natural startle instinct for self preservation. Walk into a dark room and someone jumps out and yells "Boo". The natural instinct is that of flexion - flex the spine, neck, hips, and pull the shoulders forward. Natural self preservation - same as getting hit or choked out.
Shoulder packing is the opposite - stabilize the shoulder for some kind of movement. I think your examples are spot on with what is happening, but the intent is where the difference lies.
The old school scapular punch or push up with a plus are 2 examples of pointless anti-shoulder packing. I think those in the SFG community can see the flaw in training those two positions.
I can't think of any time where upperbody movement is the goal where not packing the shoulder would be appropriate - outside of some very specific sport skills/sport related positions (like your 2 examples).
Rtokumura
Level 2 Valued Member
I agree that the shoulder pack is the healthiest position for the shoulder, and should be an active part of all movements. That being said, when the arms are overhead, the scapula must protact. Protraction is not some evil movement that was cunningly placed to make our bodies hurt, it is an vital part of how the scapula needs to move.
The shoulder pack is optimal shoulder position, not holding the shoulder back and down.
I don't think the push up plus is necessarily bad, but there are much better ways to train scapular movement to generate stability (arm bars, get ups, windmills, pressing ,waiters walks). These seem to be more intuitive to the function on the scapula and rotator, correct positioning and holding the bits in place.
The shoulder pack is optimal shoulder position, not holding the shoulder back and down.
I don't think the push up plus is necessarily bad, but there are much better ways to train scapular movement to generate stability (arm bars, get ups, windmills, pressing ,waiters walks). These seem to be more intuitive to the function on the scapula and rotator, correct positioning and holding the bits in place.
B.Hetzler
Level 3 Valued Member
Rob- I dont disagree with you. But protraction and "packing" are not the same. You can be in an overhead position (top of the press, pull up start position) and still be packed - the scapula will rotate. When poor thoracic mobilityis present more protraction is needed to attain the overhead position - but it is not a good overhead position.
The shoulder being packed is a criterion for the overhead position of the press, snatch, get up, windmill and bent press. Same when Pavel teaches the pull up.
The shoulder being packed is a criterion for the overhead position of the press, snatch, get up, windmill and bent press. Same when Pavel teaches the pull up.
Mattsirpeace
Level 4 Valued Member
I unpack when hanging on a pullup bar to stretch. It's a skill to be able to relax. I can pack/unpack and more up and down two inches while keeping my arms straight. Pavel does the same thing in one of the DVDs. If I do a pullup the sequence is pack first, then elbow flexion.
KettlebellBlackbelt
Level 1 Valued Member
With all do respects Brandon, I do understand what shoulder packing is. I am an RKC/SFG. And yes, I agree. What I described is about the opposite of shoulder packing. But then the OP's question was when NOT to shoulder pack. I admit that my answer though true-serious was also a bit toung in cheek.
When I teach kettlebells, I teach a shoulder packed position, though sometimes I'll have a new client drill moving in and out of the shoulder pack with a light bell overhead. (Drill courtesy of Brett Jones.)
Jason Belisle, SFG/RKC
Sandan (3rd deg blackbelt)
Bushidokan Federation
When I teach kettlebells, I teach a shoulder packed position, though sometimes I'll have a new client drill moving in and out of the shoulder pack with a light bell overhead. (Drill courtesy of Brett Jones.)
Jason Belisle, SFG/RKC
Sandan (3rd deg blackbelt)
Bushidokan Federation
One other thing that's worth noting, is that Ju Jitsu is hell on your shoulder socket joint. Many practitioners have shoulders that I have heard described as looking like 'Swiss cheese' by the repeated impact of the bone upon the ball joint. I think Ju Jitsu is an amazing skill, and perhaps what I'm referring to is a worst case scenario, but a packed shoulder should generally be considered the position of choice unless you really really need to achieve something else.
B.Hetzler
Level 3 Valued Member
Jason,
I agree with you and can't see in any of my responses where I questioned your knowlege on what shoulder packing was. In fact I think I used the term spot on - but my point was that your examples were of sport skills not training. I made the assumption that the original post was regarding in training are there times to not pack the shoulders.
I've heard the saying "don't confuse the drill with the skill", and Bretts' drill is a great drill - as is the pullup packing drill Matt mentioned and the packing drill taught during the TGU. But none are end game - they all teach the student to feel and get an appreciaton for what a packed shoulder feels like.
Brandon
I agree with you and can't see in any of my responses where I questioned your knowlege on what shoulder packing was. In fact I think I used the term spot on - but my point was that your examples were of sport skills not training. I made the assumption that the original post was regarding in training are there times to not pack the shoulders.
I've heard the saying "don't confuse the drill with the skill", and Bretts' drill is a great drill - as is the pullup packing drill Matt mentioned and the packing drill taught during the TGU. But none are end game - they all teach the student to feel and get an appreciaton for what a packed shoulder feels like.
Brandon
I think when you're upside down, e.g., handstand pushups, you don't worry about packing the shoulder but rather about the opposite, about constantly pushing away from the floor.
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csabour
Level 1 Valued Member
In the sport of Rowing, I believe that the shoulders are extended not "packed in". Here's a photo:
<img>http://xenocoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-26-at-5.37.44-PM-300x187.png</img>
link to article. (that's my website)
In rowing the biggest challenge is to have a "long" stroke which generates more power and boat speed. To pack in the shoulders would mean a stroke 2" shorter. Since the race is 2000 meters, and roughly 10 meters per stroke, thats 2"x200 strokes = 400 inches of lost reach.
<img>http://xenocoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-26-at-5.37.44-PM-300x187.png</img>
link to article. (that's my website)
In rowing the biggest challenge is to have a "long" stroke which generates more power and boat speed. To pack in the shoulders would mean a stroke 2" shorter. Since the race is 2000 meters, and roughly 10 meters per stroke, thats 2"x200 strokes = 400 inches of lost reach.
B.Hetzler
Level 3 Valued Member
Camron,
Another example of a skill where shoulder packing is not the optimal course of action, but is required for success in the sport.
In ju jitsu there is a high incidence of shoulder injuries (nature of the sport). In Rowing there is a high incidence of rib/shoulder/ spine problems (nature of the sport). I think this gives a great take home point about why shoulder packing is the optimal choice in training. Sport requirements are sport requirements, but training is about supplementing the sport in a safe and effective manner. Do what the sport requires, but not shoulder packing during training violates both principles.
Another example of a skill where shoulder packing is not the optimal course of action, but is required for success in the sport.
In ju jitsu there is a high incidence of shoulder injuries (nature of the sport). In Rowing there is a high incidence of rib/shoulder/ spine problems (nature of the sport). I think this gives a great take home point about why shoulder packing is the optimal choice in training. Sport requirements are sport requirements, but training is about supplementing the sport in a safe and effective manner. Do what the sport requires, but not shoulder packing during training violates both principles.
yorkshirecomrade
Level 5 Valued Member
Training - Shoulder pack at all times. Unless upside down/standing on hands.
Sports - Do what's best for sport.
Is this what we have learnt? It's actually common sense when it's discussed.
Sports - Do what's best for sport.
Is this what we have learnt? It's actually common sense when it's discussed.
Mattsirpeace
Level 4 Valued Member
I think the un-pack is inherent at the bottom of the pullup. Sort of like you might as well exhale and wiggle around at the bottom of the goblet squat. Just re-pack and re-brace every rep.
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