Barbell Where are we at with barbell endurance?

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Snowman

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When you're lifting, the heart rate goes up for a completely different reason. You're releasing catecholamines, i.e. adrenaline.
I didn't think about this in particular, but it does make sense. My thoughts behind my "HR isn't the only thing that matters" statement were more along the lines of the body's response to blood flow restriction. With a set of three deads, I'm remaining very tense for 10-15 seconds. During that time my body is breaking down PCr, and producing some waste products that require oxygen, and just blood flow in general, in order to deal with properly. After the set is over, I have all this junk that needs to be redistributed, in addition to PCr that needs to be restocked. The increase in HR is not only due to a need for oxygen, but also the fact that my tissues weren't adequately perfused with blood for 10-15 seconds. It's worth noting, as above, that this increase in HR is likely going to be mediated by adrenaline (as are most increases in HR).
With KB ballistics, I think the tense/relax cycle allows the body to circulate blood more effectively during the exercise, so the HR one gets in response to it has less to do with compensating for temporarily restricted blood flow and more to do with the actual oxygen demand.
definitely think the HR goes up to provide fuel and remove waste.
I think we can safely say that the need to get rid of waste and take in oxygen is a driver for increased HR with regard to both ballistics and grinds. We could theorize that, relative to each other, the increase in HR from ballistics is more from the need for oxygen, and the increase in HR from grinds is more from the need to clear out waste. Of course, that's hard to prove. Muscle biopsies, anyone?;)

But yes, @Anna C I would agree that a straight across comparison of the two using just HR, though not useless, is of limited usefulness.
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
What about complexes? Like C+P+FSQ? I seem to remember someone here mentioning that they ran Dry Fighting Weight as BB complex due to equipment availability.
 

Snowman

Level 6 Valued Member
What about complexes?
I would guess that, since the tension/relaxation cycle would be similar, the metabolic effect would probably be similar as well. I tend to think that BB and KB grinds aren't that different from each other (besides the different angles), while BB and KB ballistics tend to be quite different. Since the DFW is mostly (two-thirds) based on grinds, a BB version would likely be similar to a KB version. If the BB'er was using hang power cleans instead of full cleans, it might be even closer. Having not recently done much work with either KB or BB complexes, that's about as much of an opinion as I'm willing to offer.




An aside as things are clarifying in my own mind. I'm putting things into two camps, which may or may not be appropriate:
1) Stuff that creates a demand for more oxygen to be fed through the mitochondria (pretty much any exercise)
2) Stuff that impedes blood flow due to tension, and causes metabolic waste to build up (high tension exercises)

The more and longer the tension, the more the HR response is due to #2, and therefore the less it is due to #1.
Back to the basics of programming. How good do you need your mitochondria to be? How good do you need you muscles to be at clearing metabolic waste?
 

Anna C

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With a set of three deads, I'm remaining very tense for 10-15 seconds. During that time my body is breaking down PCr, and producing some waste products that require oxygen, and just blood flow in general, in order to deal with properly. After the set is over, I have all this junk that needs to be redistributed, in addition to PCr that needs to be restocked. The increase in HR is not only due to a need for oxygen, but also the fact that my tissues weren't adequately perfused with blood for 10-15 seconds.

Yes! I agree. It's why I don't quite agree with the explanation that the HR increase is only about adrenaline when you're doing pure strength work, but I do think it's very relevant which is why I thought that podcast quote was good. The rest of the podcast is good too, if you get a chance to listen ot it.

It's worth noting, as above, that this increase in HR is likely going to be mediated by adrenaline (as are most increases in HR).

Also a really good point. In fact, I imagine (don't know, cause I'm not an expert) that when you run or do some other "mostly" steady-state activity, adrenaline figures in to a large degree. I know when I'm riding my bike and a dog chases me, my heart rate jumps! Same thing if I'm in a sprint and someone passes me... adrenaline, HR jump, sprint follows. In fact, when any road feature or other distraction (such as taking a drink of water while riding) figures in, same thing to a lesser degree.

Along those same lines I think adrenaline comes into play with kettlebells to a large degree with beginners. Think of the first time someone does a get-up with weight. They're nervous, sweating, HR increased, breathing shallow and fast. Lots of adrenaline. Compare to someone who's been doing S&S for a year or two. They are calm, focused, breathing deeply. Much less adrenaline.

And along those lines I remember @Brett Jones (if memory servers that it was him) talking on a podcast about HRV and FMS, and how changes in HRV are somewhat predictive in how well someone can do a movement in a screen. If they know they can't do it, they're nervous, HRV decreases (and HR probably increases). If they're relaxed and confident about doing it, HRV is higher (more parasympathetic).

Fascinating stuff.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
With KB ballistics, I think the tense/relax cycle allows the body to circulate blood more effectively during the exercise, so the HR one gets in response to it has less to do with compensating for temporarily restricted blood flow and more to do with the actual oxygen demand.

I agree, however, it varies a lot. Viking Warrior Conditioning a lot more on one end of the spectrum (more aerobic, therefore HR related to oxygen demand)... heavy C&J, C&P, squats, etc. on the other end.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
We could theorize that, relative to each other, the increase in HR from ballistics is more from the need for oxygen, and the increase in HR from grinds is more from the need to clear out waste.

Well, here I think you get into how long the set goes.

If it's short, it's alactic and there's little waste because we're staying away from the anaerobic glycolysis that produces H+. So we could theorize it's driven more by adrenaline and then the needs of the aerobic system to replenish PCr.... i.e., A+A.

If it's longer than 15 seconds or so, or REALLY demanding such as a 20-sec all-out Airdyne sprint for HIIT, then it's probably the need to clear out waste.
 

Snowman

Level 6 Valued Member
@Anna C I would agree with all of the above.

So we could theorize it's driven more by adrenaline and then the needs of the aerobic system to replenish PCr
My question (and it really is a question that I don't know the answer to), is "What's driving the adrenaline up?" Is it psychological arousal, a decrease in blood pH, transient hypertension? I mean, it's likely all of those together and more, but to what degree is each piece responsible, and during what time frame?
You bring up a good point, in that the byproducts of a truly alactic effort are pretty well contained within the cell, but let's not forget that there is no such thing as a 100% alactic effort in a human muscle cell. I guess I don't know how much significance to assign to the little bit of anaerobic glycolysis going on in the background of a high tension, 10 second effort.

But I think that is getting off track from what you're saying, which is that KB ballistics are the best tool for job, if the job is A+A training with the intent of efficiently developing aerobic capacity, power, and the conditioning necessary for repeated hard efforts. I think, theory aside, enough people have tried enough variations of A+A training that we can fairly confidently say that this is true.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
If increase in HR is triggered by metabolic byproducts it would mostly be CO2 (?). I would think it is far more influenced by adrenaline but I admit to having no real knowledge about this. Most literature say it is in response to demand, but normal biologic activity is triggered by an imbalance of something relative to something else. Increased CO2 is one, but not the primary from what I've read.

Adrenaline increases glycolytic activity in the heart, but I don't see why that would increase HR by itself - if the ATP isn't being consumed glycolysis drops off pretty rapidly.

Short efforts won't produce much of a Ph drop, but any rapid consumption of ATP will trigger glycolysis whether its immediately needed for ATP or not. It won't continue to increase, but will initially spike and drop back to whatever maintenance level is called for.


Back to the basics of programming. How good do you need your mitochondria to be? How good do you need you muscles to be at clearing metabolic waste?

Also to keep in mind, glycolysis works from both ends and with fat oxidation is also a recharge agent for PCr. Mitochondria sit at the intersection of all three systems. The mitochondria get better at whatever zone they're primarily tasked with providing energy for, just like muscle fibers improve to better handle whatever activity they're primarily challenged with.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
My question (and it really is a question that I don't know the answer to), is "What's driving the adrenaline up?" Is it psychological arousal, a decrease in blood pH, transient hypertension? I mean, it's likely all of those together and more, but to what degree is each piece responsible, and during what time frame?
You bring up a good point, in that the byproducts of a truly alactic effort are pretty well contained within the cell, but let's not forget that there is no such thing as a 100% alactic effort in a human muscle cell. I guess I don't know how much significance to assign to the little bit of anaerobic glycolysis going on in the background of a high tension, 10 second effort.

Good question on the adrenaline. I definitely wonder the same. And how does this play into physical performance... psyching oneself up for a lift, for example, vs. "eustress training" as I've heard it called, or "on a calm heart" as another phrase I recall. Really interesting area.

True on the no such thing as 100% alactic effort. As with all types of AGT, it's not about avoiding glycolysis, but instead about avoiding deep and/or prolonged glycolysis.

KB ballistics are the best tool for job, if the job is A+A training with the intent of efficiently developing aerobic capacity, power, and the conditioning necessary for repeated hard efforts. I think, theory aside, enough people have tried enough variations of A+A training that we can fairly confidently say that this is true.

Yes, I agree!
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
For what purpose?

To operate at 90%+ for extended durations. Wrestling tounament for example: max effort, hour later max effort, hour later max effort, hour later max effort, next day max effort, hour later max effort, etc.

I'm not understanding the use case and/or sports specificity for hour long barbell endurance.

Athletes in barbell sports don't need an hours worth of endurance in a competition setting -- the most relevant in Olympic lifting is when you have to 'follow yourself' on the platform and go again...but that's minutes, not hours (and as a Masters lifter, this happens to me a lot, and it sucks...so I'm hoping to use KB Hybrid Conditioning to address it).

And for fighting sports, where they do need long strength endurance, why would they use a barbell as the tool of choice for that conditioning?

I just hope it doesn't become some Crossfit imitation where people do metcons of awful looking barbell lifts for time....
 
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watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
But I think that is getting off track from what you're saying, which is that KB ballistics are the best tool for job

As a weightlifter, even if KBs and barbells are equally good, I would never ever never use a barbell for conditioning, at least not with any lift that resembles, wholly or in part, what I do in competition.

Why?

Because I don't want to jack up my competition lift groove mechanics and muscle memory by training with a mutant variant of it.

If I started doing snatches for reps it's going to mess up my 'real' snatch.

This isn't a danger with using the KB for conditioning, because the tool and techniques are so different from a barbell.

Part of the value, as a barbell athlete, for using the KB for conditioning is that it isn't a barbell.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I'm not understanding the use case and/or sports specificity for hour long barbell endurance.

Good point, @watchnerd, you're stating the obvious, but it needed to be said. The barbell is not the tool for this A+A type training. But it's fun to talk through the particulars of why.

Part of the value, as a barbell athlete, for using the KB for conditioning is that it isn't a barbell.

Another good point!
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 6 Valued Member
As a weightlifter, even if KBs and barbells are equally good, I would never ever never use a barbell for conditioning, at least not with any lift that resembles, wholly or in part, what I do in competition.

Why?

Because I don't want to jack up my competition lift groove mechanics and muscle memory by training with a mutant variant of it.

If I started doing snatches for reps it's going to mess up my 'real' snatch.

This isn't a danger with using the KB for conditioning, because the tool and techniques are so different from a barbell.

Part of the value, as a barbell athlete, for using the KB for conditioning is that it isn't a barbell.

Excellent Point

I hammered this point home for years on this site and others.

Powerlifter's Dilemma

Ironically, many Powerlifter employ the Competition Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift as the Training Exercises.

As watchnerd stated, this is an incredibly bad idea.

Research has demonstrated muscle fatigue increases with each repetition in a movement. Muscle Fatigue alters your technique as well as the muscle firing sequence in a movement.

Reiteration

As I have noted in previous post...

1) Technique is best developed with loads of 85% of your 1 Repetition Max for singles, possibly doubles.

The muscle firing sequence changes with the load; preforming the movement with a lighter load doesn't carry over when performing a 1 Repetition Max.

Practicing hitting a 60 mph baseball doesn't carry over to hitting a 90 mph fast ball.

2) Multiple set are performed with Rest Periods long enough between sets to insure recovery.

3) Once the muscles in the Technique Movement become fatigued, STOP. Continuing ensure and promotes poor technique.

4) Strength is developed in a Technique Movement by employing exercise that are similar in nature and utilize same muscle groups.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Deleted member 5559

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Ever see a small farm kid buck hay that weighs as much as he does, similar to heavy singles with short rest between reps. What about a strongman competition lifting near max repeatedly then doing it again a while later.

The intent of barbell endurance isn't necessarily for barbell specific sports, it would be to extend the number of times the body can make a max effort grind while fatigued. I'm not sure I would even consider it conditioning. I dont know if it would change how a muscle or the CNS fatigues or what would happen to the physiology but it seems more unique than A+A snatches or other conditioning.
 

Deleted member 5559

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I'd like to test my understanding of it by claiming it is the phosphocreatine (PCr) depletion rate and restoration rate that A+A target trains. Ballistics deplete that faster than grinds and kettlebell ballistics allow for repeated reps to occur much more rapidly than barbell ballistics. Sprints for example would do this well also.

Grind endurance is different and has multiple aspects. One element is high reps and time under tension (TUT) and the ability for the muscles to function while inundated with waste products. A second element is nervous system fatigue and causing incorrect firing sequence or failure to fire at all. Another would be muscle damage and the inability to cause contribution to the contraction.

There is undoubtedly more occuring in both types and I cannot claim the above is even accurate but I hope these conversations are helping my understanding more than hindering it at least.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
I would think maybe the other end of barbell work might be closer to KB application, but maybe not.

Barbell Thrusters or Barbell Burpees done with 60-70% RM for 15-20 seconds on the minute would mimic HR and PCr depletion very closely to what heavy snatches do, and neither are super critical of form fatigue like the Oly lifts are.

You could certainly do heavy singles for long strings but that's the type of endurance you're going to build as well. Systemic fatigue vs specific.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Reiteration

As I have noted in previous post...

1) Technique is best developed with loads of 85% of your 1 Repetition Max for singles, possibly doubles.

The muscle firing sequence changes with the load; preforming the movement with a lighter load doesn't carry over when performing a 1 Repetition Max.

Practicing hitting a 60 mph baseball doesn't carry over to hitting a 90 mph fast ball.

2) Multiple set are performed with Rest Periods long enough between sets to insure recovery.

3) Once the muscles in the Technique Movement become fatigued, STOP. Continuing ensure and promotes poor technique.

4) Strength is developed in a Technique Movement by employing exercise that are similar in nature and utilize same muscle groups.

Kenny Croxdale

+1000%

Although I didn't start learning Olympic lifting until I was over 40, I was blessed enough to have learned the lifts, and training programming, from Jim Schmitz (Team USA weighlifting coach 1980, 1988, 1992).

He was relentless in hammering all the points you just mentioned.

As a result, my programming now can be divided into 3 macro phases (off season, pre season, competition):

Off Season (6+ months from competition)

Focused on 3 questions:

How Strong Do I Need to Be?
  • Determine Snatch and Clean & Jerk target weights for next competition
  • Calculate necessary strength in back squat, front squat and clean deadlift to hit those targets weights
  • Develop strength program to hit base 'grind' strength in BSQ,FSQ,CDL 5-6 months prior to competition (currently using Funtikov & Survetsky)
How Mobile and Stable Am I?

  • Can I hit and statically hold the critical positions at the top and bottom of the lifts with full range of motion?
  • Can I hold an overhead static lockout in end position of the lift for >50% of target weight for >60 seconds?
  • Develop mobility and stability program to improve all of the above, using bodyweight exercises, yoga, and weights (KB TGU, windmill, waiter's walk, etc.) that have low stress and help active recovery
How Conditioned Am I?
  • How much rest time (r) am I going to have between lift attempts in competition?
  • Is my RPE at 5 or below / heart rate <120 bpm, r-seconds after a heavy squat or deadlift? How about after a 85% clean and jerk?
  • What weight class will I compete in and how much do I need to lose to make weight by competition date?
  • Develop conditioning program using LISS and hybrid power conditioning (currently using kettlebells, following Marker method)
=======

A couple of notes:

  • I don't do technique accessory lifts (push jerk, block jerks, power cleans, power snatches, etc) until the pre-season, the window 3-6 months before competition
  • Accept for occasional GTG or 'where am I' assessments, I don't touch the competition technique lifts (snatch, CJ) until the final competition training cycle, 9-12 weeks before competition, at 80-85% (doubles and singles)
IMHO, kettlebell ballistics are a near perfect conditioning tool for barbell athletes because:

  • Allow you to do AGT training and increase biological power production in a way that creates physical adaptations that translate to the competition lifts
  • Low impact on recovery ability, but high conditioning results, if used at sub-maximal weights
  • Techniques that are different enough from barbell lifting to avoid skill pollution
 
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watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Why shouldn’t a BB complex be used for A+A training? Why are only KBs allowed?

Depends if you're a barbell athlete or not.

If you're not a barbell athlete, use whatever you want (although I don't see what advantages barbells have).

But if you're a barbell athlete (like I am), I wouldn't do it, for fear of technique pollution.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Barbell Thrusters or Barbell Burpees done with 60-70% RM for 15-20 seconds on the minute would mimic HR and PCr depletion very closely to what heavy snatches do, and neither are super critical of form fatigue like the Oly lifts are.

When I look at a barbell burpee, I don't understand what it's training you for:

  • It's not explosive enough to really help power production (as opposed to a power clean)
  • It's too many reps, done at too fast tempo, to allow good technique
  • It's not heavy enough to act as a strength building exercise
I mean, yeah, it's a good workout and taxing exercise, but is it training for anything?

To me, that falls into the Crossfit style 'metcon' of exercise.
 
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