Where are we at with barbell endurance?

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Deleted member 5559

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Why not use a sandbag?
I don't think this would derail the intent of the thread if we consider how and why to train extended near max efforts with a sandbag.

The primary intent is to consider the applicabilty and methods of repeated max effort grinds along with similarities and differences with extended duration kettlebell ballistics. Sandbag, barbell, rock, hold equal weight in my mind for that intent.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
I don't think this would derail the intent of the thread if we consider how and why to train extended near max efforts with a sandbag.

The primary intent is to consider the applicabilty and methods of repeated max effort grinds along with similarities and differences with extended duration kettlebell ballistics. Sandbag, barbell, rock, hold equal weight in my mind for that intent.
I find sandbag ballistics to be brutally hard.

Just cleaning, from the floor, an 80 lb (medium) to one shoulder feels like >2x the equivalent barbell weight because the leverages are so bad and there are so many power leaks in the limp fabric handles. Trying to grab the body of the bag makes it even worse, because of how squishy the bag is.

At the behest of a 'complimentary' personal trainer session at an Equinox gym I once belonged to (hey, they had a lifting platform...), 3 x 10 of these (5 each side) cleans from the floor and I was smoked.

Then trying to press overhead it after that....again, squishy, very difficult.

It was all so bad that I felt relieved when the last task was simply trudge up an incline treadmill with it draped over my shoulders.

I'm usually mostly in the 'weight is weight' school, but the sandbag felt so much heavier than it really was....I'm not sure what effect that has on strength building.
 

Denny Phillips

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vegpedlr-

My first run through DFW was with a BB due to not having a pair of adequate sized KB's. I did hang cleans because it seemed like the closest thing to the initial KB clean position plus I prefer them. I avoided metcon like the plague so I don't know if I could have constricted the rest interval or not, some days yes and others no. My next door renter has a few bells which will allow me use KB's the next time. A little more than a year has passed and I hope I can make a fair comparison. I really liked the program.
 

Steve Freides

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@Bro Mo, programs like the Bear from PTTP feature up to 20 sets on short rests with substantial weights. Does that meet your criteria for barbell endurance? We have conflicting goals - a heavy weight, but for a long time. Perhaps most interesting if you consider Justa's example as given in his book, the body composition of someone who can move heavy things all day long isn't what most people seem to be interested in these days.

-S-
 

Deleted member 5559

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Research has demonstrated muscle fatigue increases with each repetition in a movement. Muscle Fatigue alters your technique as well as the muscle firing sequence in a movement.
can you elaborate on this more, each repetition in a set or in a session? It appeared to me that singles significantly reduces this.

Technique is best developed with loads of 85% of your 1 Repetition Max for singles, possibly doubles.
Is there a volume of 85% singles that developes other physiological adaptations beyond technique?

The muscle firing sequence changes with the load; preforming the movement with a lighter load doesn't carry over when performing a 1 Repetition Max.
Is the inverse true? Does the firing sequence from max efforts carry over to lighter loads?

Multiple set are performed with Rest Periods long enough between sets to insure recovery.
How long are those rest periods?

Strength is developed in a Technique Movement by employing exercise that are similar in nature and utilize same muscle groups.
How similar or dissimilar? Bench press to pushup or bench press to military press? Military press to dip?
 

Deleted member 5559

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programs like the Bear from PTTP feature up to 20 sets on short rests with substantial weights. Does that meet your criteria for barbell endurance?
I believe so, what adaptations are occuring that are different than 3x3 or other training methods? Has any more development/changes occurred with the bear program?
 

Steve Freides

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Speaking only off the top of my head, but I think it hold up:

If you do only a very little lifting, you get very little results. With care, and with both experience and a high level of skill, some people can make a little go a long way.

Adding volume with heavy weights increases strength and under the right conditions also produces hypertrophy.

Keep adding volume and you keep getting stronger but you stop getting bigger and start to get smaller. I think the Bear and that sort of volume yields great results, but more and you start to need weight lifting to be your only job in order to achieve the volume.

-S-
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
What would happen if instead of swings or snatches for A+A, one did the time equivalent of C+P+FSQ, using a HRM to judge recovery between sets?
 

Deleted member 5559

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I imagine the weight and travel distance would be fine but the pace would be slower which would limit the wattage and restrict the PCr depletion rate and associated aerobic recovery.

On the flip side, I imagine using the same weight for squats as used for pressing would limit the technique and other associated benefits of using ~85% max.
 

Anna C

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What would happen if instead of swings or snatches for A+A, one did the time equivalent of C+P+FSQ, using a HRM to judge recovery between sets?
I would agree with what @Bro Mo said. And there's so much in the Strong Endurance manual, you wouldn't believe the level of detail.... I'm not sure I'm representing it accurately, but one point is that it's not just about a systemic level of effort -- it's about CP depletion in the target muscle groups. So mixing exercises isn't going to accomplish as much.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
I find sandbag ballistics to be brutally hard.

Just cleaning, from the floor, an 80 lb (medium) to one shoulder feels like >2x the equivalent barbell weight because the leverages are so bad and there are so many power leaks in the limp fabric handles. Trying to grab the body of the bag makes it even worse, because of how squishy the bag is.

At the behest of a 'complimentary' personal trainer session at an Equinox gym I once belonged to (hey, they had a lifting platform...), 3 x 10 of these (5 each side) cleans from the floor and I was smoked.

Then trying to press overhead it after that....again, squishy, very difficult.

It was all so bad that I felt relieved when the last task was simply trudge up an incline treadmill with it draped over my shoulders.

I'm usually mostly in the 'weight is weight' school, but the sandbag felt so much heavier than it really was....I'm not sure what effect that has on strength building.
I agree, they definitely feel tougher. A lot of that is they take up more volume so they're never as tight to your center of gravity as cast iron. And then there is leakage galore whether gripping the bag or the handles. Combine poor leverage angles with leakage and you have a recipe for day to day manipulation of odd objects or strength application. Not perfect, but less imperfect.

And with the best form they will still knock the user around more than other resistance modes.

Back to my earlier POV I think this improves general strength better but likewise makes them a poor choice for some other attributes like hypertrophy because you cannot dial in the effort and movement pattern with laser precision like you can with cast iron. Which challenges my "weight is weight" theory as well - you might get bigger and stronger using sandbags but you'd have to be pretty creative to get shredded using them exclusively (cue the instagram link to some impossibly shredded smiling guy/gal with sandbag over their shoulder :D).

Have recently kicked over to doing the bulk of my resistance training with them, one bag has only sand and a second bag has sand and a few 10lb bags of steel ballast - they're both about the same size but optional 30-50lbs difference.


What would happen if instead of swings or snatches for A+A, one did the time equivalent of C+P+FSQ, using a HRM to judge recovery between sets?
What about double KB or barbell thrusters? Its tough to imagine another lift that allows as much control over cadence even compared to snatch. Can make use of some dang heavy loads and is friendly to a little fatigue form degradation.

For higher power output, throw a moderately weighted sandbag into the air from a shallow squat, catch, drop smoothly into shallow squat, repeat.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
can you elaborate on this more, each repetition in a set or in a session? It appeared to me that singles significantly reduces this.
Technique and Muscle Fatigue

At any point in a set, when Muscle Fatigue occurs in a Technique Movement, STOP! Continuing ensure you Technique is going to fall apart; you end up learning to preform the movement incorrectly.

Powerlifters

Many Powerlifter use the Competition Lifts as the training exercise. This is one of the few groups, that has this foolish mentality.

As watchnerd essentially stated, this is a really bad idea.

Repping Out

You don't see Olympic Lifter, Pole Vaulters, Shot Putters, Baseball Batters, etc preforming multiple non-stop repetitions with 5, 10 or 15 per set. However, many Powerlifter do just that.

Building Strength In A Movement

The key to increasing Limit Strength in a movement is to employ Auxiliary Exercise that utilize the same muscle groups and have a similar Strength Curve.

Deadlift Lift Auxiliary Exercises

Good Morning, Still Leg Deadlifts (slight bend in knees), Trap Bar Deadlifts, Trap Bar Stiff Leg Deadlifts, 90 Degree Back/Hip Extensions, 45 Degree Back/Hip Extensions, Pull Through, Romanian Deadlifts, Hip Thrust, etc.

The purpose of these movement is to increase Limit Strength for your Deadlift. You can push them to the limit, if your form fall off, it is not an issue. The focus is on increasing Limit Strength, not technique.

Is there a volume of 85% singles that developes other physiological adaptations beyond technique?
I am not quite sure what you are asking.

Is the inverse true? Does the firing sequence from max efforts carry over to lighter loads?
The Inverse Is True

The muscle firing sequence change with the percentage of the load; other factors also take place.

Back To The Baseball Analogy

As I previously stated, learning to hit a 60 mph baseball won't make you good at hitting a 90 mph fast ball.

The reverse it true. Learning to hit a 90 mph fast ball won't make you good at hitting a 60 mph baseball. A large part of that has to do with the timing and the muscle recruitment is slightly different.

How long are those rest periods?
Multiple set are performed with Rest Periods long enough between sets to insure recovery.

Same answer as before. The rest period need to be long enough to ensure that you preform the Technique Movement correctly. Recover could take you two, three minutes or longer.

How similar or dissimilar? Bench press to pushup or bench press to military press? Military press to dip?
Performing Auxiliary Exercise Similar In Nature To The Technique Movement

1) Push Up; These are an Upside Bench Press, essentially the same. However, it hard to overload Push Up with weights.

2) Military Press: It is effective at increasing your shoulder/triceps strength but does little for chest strength.

3) Dips: This is the ultimate Decline Bench Press; a great movement. Pat Casey, the first man to Bench Press 600 ls in a T-Shirt, found this was/it still is, one of the most effective Auxiliary Bench Press Exercises there is.

4) Incline Press: This is a great Bench Press Auxiliary Exercise; you can vary the Incline Level.

5) Reverse Grip Bench Press: Research show it work the upper chest more than the Incline Bench Press, as well as overloading the triceps.

Summary

1) Westside Powerlifting Method (Circa 1980): Part of the foundation of this program is build on the use of Auxiliary Exercises as a means of increasing Limit Strength, 1 Repetition Max.

2) Bench Press More Now

This book by Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics) came about the same time as the Westside Powerlifting Method.

McLaughlin's research reinforces the Westside Powerlifting Method.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Powerlifters

Many Powerlifter use the Competition Lifts as the training exercise. This is one of the few groups, that has this foolish mentality.

As watchnerd essentially stated, this is a really bad idea.

Repping Out

You don't see Olympic Lifter, Pole Vaulters, Shot Putters, Baseball Batters, etc preforming multiple non-stop repetitions with 5, 10 or 15 per set. However, many Powerlifter do just that.
And Crossfitters.

One of my biggest beefs against Crossfit is their promotion of the idea that doing highly technique-based exercises for reps/time is a good idea.
 

Deleted member 5559

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I am not quite sure what you are asking.
Does one gain other benefits such as connective tissue strength, bone density, etc. @85% that can't be developed at lower weights? If there are other things, is there a certain volume required to obtain those benefits?
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
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And Crossfitters.

One of my biggest beefs against Crossfit is their promotion of the idea that doing highly technique-based exercises for reps/time is a good idea.
@watchnerd, one of our saying at StrongFirst is, "We don't say you're wrong, only that we know what we do works." Please don't speak disrespectfully of CrossFit or any other nominally competing approach to strength and conditioning.

Thank you.

-S-
 

Deleted member 5559

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One of my biggest beefs against Crossfit is their promotion of the idea that doing highly technique-based exercises for reps/time is a good idea.
To be fair, snatching a barbell for reps/time is not the sport of weightlifting. Crossfit is to weightlifting no more than weightlifting is to Crossfit. Going from ground to overhead in a single movement is still a snatch but the intent of the different techniques is very different and changes the sport. Ground-to-overhead wattage output is a different technique than max weight technique and I see no issue with that. Because Crossfit isn't weightlifting, weightlifting technique doesn't really matter.
//
To get back on track, the weightlifting technique used to handle 85% max loads is applicable to low load wattage output but the low-load wattage technique is not equally applicable to max load weightlifting technique. For something technical like weightlifting, is there benefit in extending the number of heavy reps that can be done before sacrificing technique? Would it improve the carryover to low-load wattage?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
@watchnerd, one of our saying at StrongFirst is, "We don't say you're wrong, only that we know what we do works." Please don't speak disrespectfully of CrossFit or any other nominally competing approach to strength and conditioning.
Steve,

Disrespectful?

Watchnerd's beef is his disagreement with their use in the use of "Highly technique-based exercise for reps".

Essentially, he simply echoed the information that I have posted based on the research and empirical data on this topic several time on this board.

Kenny Croxdale
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
Does one gain other benefits such as connective tissue strength, bone density, etc. @85% that can't be developed at lower weights? If there are other things, is there a certain volume required to obtain those benefits?
By the literature, anything over 60% improves bone density.

There is a considerable body of evidence showing that work with 85%+ leads to much greater strength gains when working in that range.

But some of the data showed no real difference in Isometric strength between high and moderate %RM work.

Personally I believe there are tendon remodelling at higher %RM that is lacking at lower values, but again I have no proof of this. There is also theory that the muscle fibers cross link and provide greater pull for the same number of motor units but again this has zero evidence.

Pennation angle has been shown to change with strength training and this has an effect on force production. But there is no evidence you have to work at high %RM to get this effect.

In other words - very good question.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
To be fair, snatching a barbell for reps/time is not the sport of weightlifting. Crossfit is to weightlifting no more than weightlifting is to Crossfit.
To be clear, I don't think the sport of weightlifting has a monopoly on how to do the barbell quick lifts any more than I believe powerlifting has a monopoly on how to squat. I myself learned to clean and snatch as part of a strength and conditioning program as a collegiate athlete, decades before I ever took up the sport of weightlifting.

My issue is that I just don't think it's very good programming, just like I don't think Smith machine squats or 3 lb dumbbell tricep kickbacks are very good programming for most people.

But I don't know how to explain 'why' without seeming to say someone else's training is wrong, and thus violating forum rules, so I'll just have to leave it at that.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@watchnerd and @kennycro@@aol.com, there's a difference between giving detailed reasons why a certain approach isn't what you'd choose to do on the one hand, and simply saying that this is what someone else advocates and it's wrong on the other. @kennycro@@aol.com, please post links including post numbers to the other posts you're talking about.

NB for anyone interested - if you click on the post number, e.g., "#99" just above this post, you'll have the opportunity to put the correct URL that includes the post number into your cut-and-paste buffer.

-S-
 
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