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Old Forum Where to go from here? S&S sort of...

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GeoffreyLevens

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Started S&S a few weeks ago, and after much experimentation find I would really be better off long term not doing TGU's. I love the program my my knees... So I sort of improvised and then found that someone else was on somewhat similar track. Below I will give details of what I"m doing and goals and ask couple questions. I realize it is not S&S but I am thinking it is somewhat in the same philosophical camp.
The Best and Simplest One Kettlebell Workout~by MAX SHANK
I do the warm ups and swing portion of S&S as written and then, to replace the TGU's I have been doing a circuit of goblet squats, with full tension pause at bottom while I do a full two hands on one bell arm curl, then standing press, then renegade rows. Very noticeable and rapid increase in strength and conditioning has been happening so I am well please with the results so far and my knees seem very happy with this.

Since I was woefully out of shape coming in (long side story) I started everything w/ 16 kg. Still have a bit of work on swings to get to what I would consider full power (16kg is very close to 30% of my body weight) but have for several days hit 5X5 on the grinds.

My main goals in definite rank order are 1) connective tissue and muscular strength 2) conditioning and 3) a little hypertrophy would be nice.

Given all that, would I be better off at this point increasing the load, going to the 24 kg on the grinds and just working it in gradually as has been suggested for the TGU's? Or increasing the volume, maybe either to 5X10 or 10X5?

If increasing volume is the call, which format would be best, same number of sets/circuits and more reps each one, or stick to the 5 reps and increase the number of sets/circuits?

Thank you!
 
Hey there. Explain what is bothering your knees.

Is it the pressure in the half kneeling/windmill or is it the Lunge part? You should still work the TGU. If the knee pressure is bothering you find a foam, mat or knee guards in the mean time... If its in the lunge portion then perhaps you need to work on your depth of lunge, knee tracking and core engagement. Can you post a video link?

 

I would Grease the groove and increase volume.... Really focus on your technique... video yourself and share with an SFG or you analyze it yourself. Don't rush to going to a bigger bell. You will still build strength and functional strength with the 16. You could swing heavier if you'd like.
 
Thank you for jumping in Alydia.

It is a little bit the pressure and much more the inherent instability of the 1/2 kneeling position (which is part of its great virtue actually) and potential for minute wobbles or misalignments. I have used up all my "grace period", "spare cartilage", whatever you want to call it. Ain't no "should" about it. For you perhaps a minor injury would sideline you for a few days, for me it could well mean full knee replacement surgery. So in my world, TGU's are not going to happen.

Cost/benefit analysis is what it boils down to: I do think TGU's are one of the very best training exercises out there but not at all essential for a long and happy life of full mobility. I am very confident of my form and am pretty certain I could do them w/ a 24 kg bell at this point but to me, though the risk may be very small, it is just not worth it. Particularly since there are other movement patterns I can do to stay strong and healthy.

My real question is, 5X10 or 10X5 for the squats, presses, and rows. From all I have read I think 5X10 would more promote hypertrophy and 10X5 strength but I want to be certain.So far what I am doing seems to be hitting all the bases and progressing well. In the absence of an answer I have gone to 6X5, planning to add a set as reasonably doable.
 
Hi Geoffrey,

As long as your form is good, I'd say go heavier on the grinds. Also, you could probably get most of the benefits of the get up if you went from laying on the ground all the way to the "tall sit" (maybe even add a high bridge) and back, and then added some arm bars and waiter walks to your routine. I personally don't like going heavy with the TGU, but I can't deny how good it is at a light or medium weight. With your knees, you are definitely best avoiding the direct pressure, but these other elements seem like they could be added in easily.
 
Thanks Joe. I do think I am getting a lot of the get-up benefits from what I am doing already. I have developed pretty good mobility and stability already in shoulder girdle and pelvis both.
 
Geoffrey - you say your knees are the problem:

"it is a little bit the pressure and much more the inherent instability of the 1/2 kneeling position (which is part of its great virtue actually) and potential for minute wobbles or misalignments".

......so aswell as pressure on the knee you are unstable in the 1/2 kneeling position and that as you say is more of an issue. One side? Both sides? Are you able to have a FMS screen?

Notwithstanding your knee pain(s) being unstable in 1/2 kneeling unweighted will be problem weighted! You may well have more going on than just the knee pain, which may or may not be related to your instability.

I was having pressure issues on the knee in the get up. I switched from the rear leg windshield wiper in the 1/2 kneeling to moving the front leg instead to prepare for the lunge. This thread came up recently with a video link or  Al Ciampa has a demo of it, somewhere. Not suggesting that that will clear up any pain by the way but it certainly helped me with the position which was more to do with discomfort than anything else. Having said that, more perhaps will be revealed if you have a screen, or if you are in constant pain a thorough check up and a SFMA.

The get up is really a marvelous thing - if you have problems somewhere perhaps not so, as you will seek ways to avoid the issue. That's why it is such a marvelous thing, problems are revealed! If you are unstable in the 1/2 kneel, looks like you need to work on that but you may have other issues going on that may need to be addressed first.....pain notably. Definately worth a screen?
 
Approximately 2 days driving round trip for an FSM screen. Have had them in the past though. I do have issues, pelvic neuromuscular amnesia in glutes, unconsciously put rotational stress on tibia when not paying attention. That is where injuries came from in first place. Been working on all that for 20 years at least.  At this point I am quite stable doing the movement and did it quite a bit a couple years ago w/ 24 kg bell. It is not so much that doing it is an acute problem. The issue is that with the way my knees and esp the left are now (which is irreversibly worn cartilage), if I were to have a momentary lapse, what would be no big deal for most people, would trash my joint to the point I would likely need replacement.  Some people would not mind that so much. Me, I will do whatever it takes to avoid it. My sister had that operation done April 1 and has been in and out (mostly in) the hospital ever since. First infection in the implant, severe pain, 2 or 3 more operations, and i.v. antibiotics which she is still on for another couple weeks. No in hospital due to extreme colitis, nausea, vomiting from the antibiotics. No bugs present but the drug can erode/inflame intestines to that degree and she drew the ('scuse the pun) crappy card on it. Much like worst of chemotherapy for cancer and amputation and even death are not out of the question. So I will not do TGU's no matter what anyone else says. I am quite happy with what I am doing. But I do thank you all.

I think I am the one that originally posted about the windshield wiper vs unweighted tech. Had high hopes. But no, still the occasional "un-oh!" maybe a big clunk inside that sort of thing though 90% of the time fine. I just will not take the risk.

So, back to my original question--if looking for strength first, conditioning 2nd, and a bit of size way back in 3rd place, which approach to increasing volume is more likely to yield the results I am after:

a) keep sets to 5 reps and increase number of sets as able to or

b) keep number of sets the same and increase reps as able

Thanks again to all who have weighed in.
 
You know your own body the best Geoffrey and absolutely keep those knees in as best condition as you are able. Keeping those surgeons out of harm's way!! I had a ski accident 8 or so years ago and the specialist knee doctor I saw advised me on my return to the uk NOT to go anywhere near a doctor who recommends surgery! I had an arthroscopy on my left knee for cartilage injury years previously and in a comedy moment inspecting my then injured other right knee, in a Swiss/German accent: 'don't let those doctors f*ck up this knee'......He went on to explain that my knee will heal itself and that most if not all intrusive knee surgery is unnecessary and can lead to many other worse issues down the road. All this is very well for docs and medical pros to argue about the whys and wherefores, pros and cons etc but the person with a problem wants answers and solutions. It is hard to know what to do when experts' views are so often polarised so it comes down to the management of the problem. I was recommended surgery in the uk by another specialist knee doctor. I declined. Rightly or wrongly. I did have an issue a year ago with my knee but it was unrelated. Good luck and keep safe.
 
Alistair, thanks for that. I'm sure you know the saying, "When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails." Same goes for the scalpel.
 
Mark, did try that for almost a week. Posted link to another video of it in different thread. I think definite improvement over the windshield wiper but not a solution for me. I am very happy with what I am doing now (sets of squats, OH press, rows) and even if TGU's were no problem at all I might just continue doing what I am doing. I see almost daily progress on all fronts and doing loaded squats (up to 30 in sets of 5 as of now) seems to be having a pronounced therapeutic effect on my knees.  Past couple years I would have a little jolt of pain every time I stepped off a curb, even a little jolt with every step walking unless very careful. Now both those situations are totally pain free.  Also was having lot of stiffness and pain on moving after sitting in chair for even a few minutes if I did not keep moving my left knee around. That is 100% gone as well.

Funny how so many seem almost religious about TGU's. To me, though they are a very fine training sequence, they are just that. Nothing is indispensable, nothing can't be eliminated or substituted in deference to long term health and mobility. No threat to anyone else, I am just a person who no longer does get-ups.
 
Geoffrey,

I totally agree with you.

But its because I have racked up enough miles between wrestling, jujuitsu, boxing, training, and a physical job to have limitations of my own that I have to respect and work around.

I respect that you know your boundries and are finding the movements you can train without crossing them.

In the last three years I've had to drastically change the focus of my training. It was hard, but once I got going in a new direction my enjoyment of it built.

Good luck on your training!
 
P.s. I have created over 20 variations of the getup based on various movement disciplines and a deep love of kinesiology.

The getup reminds me of a slow version of wrestling moves, which I miss.

All that said, if it messed with my knees, I would give it up and never look back.

There are just to many movement systems out there to get hung up on one that you can no longer do.

 

You're making the right decision!
 
Jon, great post. I too found it challenging to "reorient" my training but now I love having goal of live long w/ excellent mobility, staying away from doctors, and ultimately staying out of nursing home and being totall self reliant.   Sounds "weak" compared to cliff drops on snowboard or surfing huge waves but I think true strength is facing reality whatever it is and flowing with that.
 
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