Kettlebell Why do we have Finishers ?

[BillSteamshovel]

What is the idea behind "Finishers" ?

To me the name implies you will be exhausted (Finished) after you have added them to your normal scheduled practice.

 

[Tjerr]

I only use them with people who want to loose weight. Compound exercises turns your fat in free fatty acids, but you're body needs L-Carnitine for better burning of the free fatty acids. A quick finisher (5-10 rounds of 15s on, 45 off) with a high heart rate makes sure your body creates L-Carnitine

 

[Anna C]

I think of it as an opportunity to get a boatload of "work" in, if you don't have time (or inclination, for many people) to fill your available training allocation with ideal quality training.

So, as an equation, everyone has a certain training volume that they can recover from.... let's call that "X". You can increase X over time by building your work capacity, getting in better shape overall, or otherwise learning to tolerate volume. But in any given week, you have X.

And let's say for a given person, X is 10 "work units", and that equals 10 "ideal" training hours. That person has a number of ways they can fill those work units, Let's say they fill it all with precisely targeted strength training and zone 2 cardio. The strength training might take 3 sessions in a week of 1.5 hours total time. The cardio 5.5 hours total time. So that's 10 hours of training in a week.

But then let's say that for several weeks, they have to get in and out of the gym in an hour, so only have 5 training hours per week. Instead of the 10 hours of ideally designed training, they have to time crunch it. So in that case their strength training session might be 30 minutes of quality, structured work, and then add a 10 minute "finisher" on to get the required volume of work done in less time. Volume of work is a key driver of progress. Same thing with cardio. In this situation they don't have the time for a 2 hour zone 2 session, so instead, do a cardio session that's a 10 min warm-up, 20 minutes zone 2, 20 min of intervals of higher intensity, then a 10 min cool-down.

When that person gets back to having 10 hours available for training, they can drop the finishers and intervals and structure their training more ideally. But during that time crunch time, they did not lose fitness as they would have if they had simply cut their regular training in half.

And even if a person doesn't have a time crunch situation, they just might not want to put in that much commitment or effort to their fitness. That probably doesn't apply to most of us here, but for the average person, they just don't want to put in the mental effort, even if they have the time, for 10 hours of quality training. (And remember, everyone has a different "X", so for an elite athlete this may be 30 hours in a week. For an unfit person it may be 4 hours in a week of ideal training time, or the work volume equivalent of that.) So whatever their X is, they are not that interested in building their skill and knowledge and technique -- they just want the fitness benefits of doing "X" amount of work for the health and fitness benefits. So in that case, it also makes sense to do circuit training, or finishers, or metcons... or whatever helps them just put in the work and get it done.

And as one final category, finishers are great for testing mental fortitude, great for glycolytic peaking, great for building strength endurance for tasks or tests (such as snatch test), and great for group training scenarios.

 

[Bauer]

Sometimes, I carry my KB outdoors. Carrying them back after my session is the kind of finisher I like.

 

[grouchyjarhead]

I always considered them extra conditioning at the end of a workout more than something to completely finish you off.

I always liked the advice of Justin Lascek from this article about conditioning at the end of a workout - keep it short and hard, just like your pecker.

(This was a top notch strength and conditioning blog several years ago, highly recommend it!)

How To Make A Training Session

Recently both of my younger brothers asked me to help them with a training program. One of the first “lessons” I gave them was how to organize a training session for a program oriented …

70sbig.com

 

[3letterslong]

I think of it as an opportunity to get a boatload of "work" in, if you don't have time (or inclination, for many people) to fill your available training allocation with ideal quality training.

So, as an equation, everyone has a certain training volume that they can recover from.... let's call that "X". You can increase X over time by building your work capacity, getting in better shape overall, or otherwise learning to tolerate volume. But in any given week, you have X.

And let's say for a given person, X is 10 "work units", and that equals 10 "ideal" training hours. That person has a number of ways they can fill those work units, Let's say they fill it all with precisely targeted strength training and zone 2 cardio. The strength training might take 3 sessions in a week of 1.5 hours total time. The cardio 5.5 hours total time. So that's 10 hours of training in a week.

But then let's say that for several weeks, they have to get in and out of the gym in an hour, so only have 5 training hours per week. Instead of the 10 hours of ideally designed training, they have to time crunch it. So in that case their strength training session might be 30 minutes of quality, structured work, and then add a 10 minute "finisher" on to get the required volume of work done in less time. Volume of work is a key driver of progress. Same thing with cardio. In this situation they don't have the time for a 2 hour zone 2 session, so instead, do a cardio session that's a 10 min warm-up, 20 minutes zone 2, 20 min of intervals of higher intensity, then a 10 min cool-down.

When that person gets back to having 10 hours available for training, they can drop the finishers and intervals and structure their training more ideally. But during that time crunch time, they did not lose fitness as they would have if they had simply cut their regular training in half.

And even if a person doesn't have a time crunch situation, they just might not want to put in that much commitment or effort to their fitness. That probably doesn't apply to most of us here, but for the average person, they just don't want to put in the mental effort, even if they have the time, for 10 hours of quality training. (And remember, everyone has a different "X", so for an elite athlete this may be 30 hours in a week. For an unfit person it may be 4 hours in a week of ideal training time, or the work volume equivalent of that.) So whatever their X is, they are not that interested in building their skill and knowledge and technique -- they just want the fitness benefits of doing "X" amount of work for the health and fitness benefits. So in that case, it also makes sense to do circuit training, or finishers, or metcons... or whatever helps them just put in the work and get it done.

And as one final category, finishers are great for testing mental fortitude, great for glycolytic peaking, great for building strength endurance for tasks or tests (such as snatch test), and great for group training scenarios.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read about finishers. I wish every trainer would read this before giving finishers to beginners because too many people start training waaaay outside their recovery capacity and never make the adaptation.

i also wish more people talked about increasing fitness levels as a goal in itself instead of as a byproduct of training for a specific goal.

 

[SteveR]

For me the idea of finishers is getting some reps in at the end of workout for movements I'm not emphasizing in my main workout. Like snatches, pushups or TGUs. Just to stay in the groove with them with light/moderate intensity until I want to emphasize them and also to fill out my work capacity time goal for the workout.

 

[wespom9]

Sarcastic answer: It's a way to make sure that people think they are getting good training, when the other 52 minutes was the good training

 

[Steve Freides]

@BillSteamshovel wrote, "Why do we have Finishers ?"

I don't.

-S-

 

[conor78]

When I head out for a boys night out (although less frequently now) after a feed of Guinness we might opt for the “deadener,” which is a double Jameson or Bushmills and repeat until that bar closes or round is complete. Great craic but the morning after I would pay for this and more so as I’ve gotten older. Same with finishers. I used to use them but with balancing BJJ and kettlebell training I haven’t used them for a long time. YMMV
Good luck in your training.

 

[Dayz]

It's not an established term. For some people it to mean:

- something done to exhaustion
- isolation moves that you don't care about or program
- something random thrown in not programmed for variety
- some all out cardio

 

[ali]

Some years back, asking this question, Pavel gave his views....on the old forum. Dunno if it is searchable.

My quandary was: finishers are a popular way to end a session by elevating heart rate, getting a lactate hit and a dump of hgh. Swings are popular finishers, so why do swings first in S&S?

Well S&S swings aren't exhaustive....which at the time I had problems modulating my output and to be honest, still do. At the risk of misrembering and paraphrasing Pavel's response incorrectly, in the context of almost daily S&S type practice, it perhaps is a bit much to recover from.
Taking note of @AnnaC's excellent point of time available and recovery ability, it isn't a binary yes/no answer either. And within the context of S&S, there is a sort of finisher with continuous swings for greater glycolytic input. A little bit more mild stress every 2 weeks isn't it?

In the context of fitness workouts....yes, some positives, as mentioned, perhaps some negatives too. Sustainability for one.

Also....more nuanced, a strength finisher v a conditioning focus v a mix of both. An isolated exercise v a compound more complex more intense movement.
It all matters to the overall stress in a given week/month/cycle.

It's also about when to stop....at exhaustion or technical failure. It then gets personal, individualised by training state and goals.

Personally I don't do them. My finisher is nowhere near failure, that's when I finish. But I have issues of recognising where that is!

For someone who does a 3 day fitness thing, no big deal, really, chucking a couple minutes at the end to feel a buzz. Probably a good thing, all in all. So, as they say, it depends.

 

[watchnerd]

What is the idea behind "Finishers" ?

To me the name implies you will be exhausted (Finished) after you have added them to your normal scheduled practice.

Yes, that's the purpose.

If you're doing high volume hypertrophy and using big compounds as your main lifts, you will often hit systemic fatigue before you hit localized fatigue on all target muscles.

The "finishers" are less systemically demanding isolation work that allows you to do isolation burn-out work on any muscles that weren't sufficiently overloaded from the main lifts.

Example:

If I'm doing deadlifts or squats for reps, I (personally) will eventually just get whole body tired before my lower body, specifically, is fully toast.

So I might do hamstring curls or reverse Nordics to "finish" my legs.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

Thankyou all, for all the answers above. I will read them all again in order to understand better. ...
Am currently doing Fabios pressing program from the App and I've been aware of various posts and articles on the forum giving general advice like
" do not add anything to the program"
" leave a training session feeling energised not exhausted"
and I didnt understand where finishers might fit in the great scheme of things........... and for me right now after reading all of the above ........

Weeelllll ..... it depends .......

 

[watchnerd]

" leave a training session feeling energised not exhausted"

That's the outcome I'm looking for on a programmed light day.

But if the programmed day is a heavy day (once a week for me), I probably didn't push hard enough if I'm not at least mildly smoked.

So, yep, it depends.

 

[Chris Mills]

I have been jumping rope after programmed KB Strong work on a Q&D template (double unders are roughly the equivalent of a 200m sprint….., I can only manage about 30s before I HAVE to stop).

Not sure this is a great example. I think I am roughly staying within the parameters of both programs…., and the movements dont interfere (much) with each other. As “strong” progresses to higher volume, this may not work so great.

 

[oab]

I think the term finisher can mean different things to different people. As others have said a lot of people like to finish themselves or their victims off. However, when the session is over then it is finished. So, the last bit might be called the "finisher" using that concept. So, it is a "finish with" which is hard to say and might be shorted to "finisher" is easier to say. But, I'm sure a lot of people just finish themselves off as they want a fatiguing workout rather than a training session. Each gets to choose what they mean when they use that term.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Compound exercises turns your fat in free fatty acids, but you're body needs L-Carnitine for better burning of the free fatty acids.

Burning Body Fat

Compound exercises don't necessarily turn burn body fat.

What it comes down to how the program is written and executed.

Metabolic Conditioning Program

High Intensity Interval Cardio Training and High Intensity Interval Resistance Training Program (essentially Resistance Circuit Training Programs) elicit...

Excess Post Oxygen Consumption, EPOC

Metaphorically speaking, EPOC amount to over charing your "Metabolic Credit Card".

You essentially own more than you can pay off at one time

As with a Credit Card, you body has to pay it back over time with Interest.

In other word, Metabolic Rate remains elevate for hour after a Training Session. it burn more calories/body fat.

A quick finisher (5-10 rounds of 15s on, 45 off) with a high heart rate makes sure your body creates L-Carnitine

10 Rounds Of Interval Training

This method trigger EPOC which increases your Metabolic Rate long after the Training Session is over.

Secondly, what makes10 Round the magic number?

The Issue High Intensity Interval Training "Sprint Sets"

One of two things happen when performing all out High Intensity Interval Sets...

1) Due to the High Number of Sprint Sets, many individual hold back, not going all out. They tend to hold back so they can complete all of the High Intensity Sets.

2) They go all out on the on the first few High Intensity Training Sets and are depleted on the remaing High Intensity Interval Training Sets.

"You Can Train Hard or Long But Not Both"
Vince Gironda

There is a See-Saw Effect with Training.

Intensity is on one side of the See-Saw and Time is on the other side.

When Intensity Goes Up, Time Goes down.

When Time Goes Up, Intensity Goes Down

With that in mind one of the most effective method of High Intensity Interval Training is...

Dr Jamie Timmon's HIIT Protocol

How To Get Fit With 3 Minutes Of Exercise A Week: BBC Doc Tries 'HIT'

High Intensity Training delivers the same physical benefits as traditional endurance training, even though it takes considerably less time.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

This is composed of...

1) Three Twenty (20) Second Sprints.

2) Rest Periods of Two (2) Minutes are taken between each Sprint.

The Shorter Number of Sprints with Longer Rest Periods between them ensure greater Force Production and Intensity in each Sprint; greater Speed, Power and Strenth is produced and developed.

This method falls into the category of....

SupraMaximal Interval Training, S.M.i.T.

This method is more effective is more effective for individual interseted in the development of Maxium Strength, Power and Speed.

HIIT provide is more effective for Endurance Athletes

L-Carnitine

it has been shown to increase fat burning to some extent.

With that said...

What research data do you have that finishing a workout with High Intensity interval Training produces an increase level of L-Carnitine?

 

[Bauer]

Some years back, asking this question, Pavel gave his views....on the old forum. Dunno if it is searchable.

Carl asked

Just one quick question Pavel. What are your thoughts on quick finishers immediately post strength work (6 x 50m sprints, bike or rowing sprints)?

Pavel answered:

Carl, not a fan for a number of reasons. (...) conflicting adaptation demands. Research shows that doing heavy endurance work following power, strength, or hypertrophy work compromises the results of the first session. See Easy Strength for details.

Source: Total Package Weekly Kettlebell Training Template | StrongFirst

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Pavel answered: Conflicting adaptation demands. Research shows that doing heavy endurance work following power, strength, or hypertrophy work compromises the results of the first session.

As Bauer quote from Pavel, there is a issue with...

"Conflicting Adaptation Demands"

This is especially true when combining Maxium Strength, Power and/Speed Training with Endurance Training.

It like the someone once said, "if you chase two rabbit at the same time, you will lose both of them."

"... If you put your efforts and energy into trying to fulfil two goals at the same time, you won't succeed in either one."

Cardio Directly After Resostamce Training

Resesearch previouly presented on this form, demonstrated that performing Cardio after Resistance Training dampens and/or negates the effect of the Resistance Training Session.

With that in mind, it comes down to what type of Cardio is perform Post Resistance Training. Something like walking for a short period after the Resistance Training Session may acutally provide a benefical effect.

Jogging for something like Three Miles after a Resistnace Training Session is contraindicated.

A more effective method of performing Carido is...

1) On another day.

2) Also, it should be Limited if the objective for individual interested in increasing Maxium Strength, Power, Speed and Hypertrophy.

HIgh Intensity Interval Training and SupraMaximal Interval Training

Performing these type of Intensty Interal Training after a Resistance Training Program often can require more recovery time.

A more effective approach with High Intensity Cardio (HIIT) or Resistance Training (HIRT) is to program them sperately; later in the day or on another day.

I don't.

The Issue With "Finishers"

The obejective of a Training Session is to stress the msucles/body enough to elicit a Greater Training Effect. The muscle and body recovery/adapats to the simulus so the a greater Load or more Repetition are able to be performed in the next Training Session.

"Wound Healing"

This means the greater the tauma place on the body, the longer the recovery time required.

The problem with "Finisher" types of training at the end of a Training Session is that a greater amount of recover time is oten required.

The objective of one Training Session is to perpare you for the next one.

Steve's Approach

It ensures enough recovery occurs for his next Training Session with a greater Load, more Repetition or both.

Summary

1) As Lee Haney said, “Stimulate, don’t annihilate.”

2) Some Drop Set in a Training Session can be productive. However, pushing them too hard and too often is determental.