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Old Forum Why do we train the snatch?

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cdybeijing

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Hi all, first time post but long time reader of this forum and previously DD forums. I’m completely self-taught with kettlebells though I have made extensive use of my copy of ETK.

The simple question in the title “Why do we train the snatch?” may seem silly but I am unable to answer it for myself. I do not struggle to answer the same question about presses, swings, get-ups/windmills and squats. I am aware that the snatch is a competition lift in kettlebell sport so my question only applies to individuals who are using kettlebells for purposes other than competing in GS.

The press is a classic upper body strength building tool. The swing provides a simple and safe hinge movement that develops conditioning and power. Get-ups and windmills are full body tension exercises that promote mobility, core activation, and overall strength. Squats are an essential movement pattern and the best builder of the legs and glutes.

By contrast, the snatch seems to be an end in itself. It certainly develops conditioning and power, but so does the swing. One could argue that the snatch is a progression of the swing, but to what end? The swing has a much simpler progression (heavier swings) which has a far lower technical requirement and spares the shoulders for other training. In the ROP program, conditioning is developed with the swing and the snatch is used to test or display those gains, but we could just as easily have a swing test…

Hope some of you will be able to provide some insight on this.
 
^Smart question & want to read what SFGs know.

I attacked snatches directly and got 225 on the SSST.  Also... overused shoulders, tight piriformis muscles, raw hands, and glycolytic burnout.  Minimum-effective-dose swings now.  Still can snatch, like riding a bike.
 
Well, you don't have to snatch if you don't want to; it's an exercise, not an article of faith. There are many fine kettlebell programs (including S&S and a number of programs from Geoff Neupert and others) that don't include the snatch. And I don't teach it to everyone by any means. Over the course of the history of hardstyle, we've seen the snatch go from being the centerpiece, to basically being eclipsed by the swing. But, it is a different move than the swing, and has some qualities that the swing does not. One, it's a full body explosive move with a different cadence, since there is a pause at the top, which means it can more easily be used for some purposes than the swing, and it has a different technical component.

Also, it's fun, which is reason enough for some of us. After all, very few of us here are professional athletes or soldiers, so why not do what's enjoyable? Nowadays, I mostly use the snatch as a test, to evaluate how the rest of my training is going, but every so often I'll do a dedicated block of snatch training, and I always get a lot out of it, even if most of the year I don't train it very much.
 
I'm not an SFG yet but for me personally, the snatch is all about conditioning and developing great work capacity.
 
Chris, the grip training aspect is exceptional.  A longer movement with a lighter weight (compared to the swing) trains you on a different point on the force-velocity curve.  The arms are used more, which, as Geoff has pointed out, adds to the calories burned.

You do not have to do the snatch—or any other exercises—but its benefits are many.
 
To add to that, although swings and farmer's carries train the grip very well, what makes he unique grip training by the snatch unique is the ballistic eccentric.  This taps into the strongest motor units.

The main downside of the snatch is the required shoulder and thoracic mobility.
 
To piggyback off of Pavel and Jason, the snatch is an objective way to grade a work capacity test ... the swing is not good for this.  The snatch will tear up your hands in a way that the swing will not.  Lastly, something happens to you when you are deep into a high-rep snatch session, with the appropriate bell ... you need to go to that happy place and disregard what your body is telling you, unlike most other exercises.  Most of us (I assume) are addicted to this onset of the pain/failure/pleasure/accomplishment phenomenon that a long set of snatches provides.  But, you never have to do them.
 
Speaking of differences between the two, any thoughts on why someone would have an easier time snatching than OA swinging w/ same weight?  Other than an accumulated background of practice in snatch that is greater than OA swings...
 
Snatch has a more vertical path, doesn't put the shoulder in as disadvantaged position, and stacks the bones for the lockout. It's more ergonomic for the distance traveled, even before you put in 80 years of refinements dedicated toward making that movement more efficient by an entire federation of countries.
 
Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. Hope that you all realize I'm not trying to disparage the snatch, but do want to understand it's value. I take an Einstein approach to my training: as simple as possible, but no simpler.

The benefits for grip training, particularly owing to the ballistic eccentric recruiting the largest motor units, could be compelling depending on goals. It's interesting to me that in hard style we coach a ballistic eccentric for the snatch but not for the one handed swing. Perhaps this is because with the swing it's easier to simply use a heavier bell. Also the longer range of motion that Pavel alluded to, with the lighter bell, creates a lot of acceleration with the snatch eccentric.

I disagree with the comments so far that suggest the snatch is a better test of fitness or measurement of work capacity than the swing. Work capacity should be tested by a lift with little or no technical skill element, else those factors detract from the ability to demonstrate capacity.
 
It’s interesting to me that in hard style we coach a ballistic eccentric for the snatch but not for the one handed swing.
We don't actively pull the kettlebell on the way down in the 1h-swing? Feels much better to me than letting the ball fall just by gravity alone, activ pulling sets me up better for the next rep and makes it more powerful.
 
Not to beat on a dead horse, but I recently read an article on this topic by Steve Maxwell. To my knowledge he is the most prominent kettlebell guy to have gone on record advising against training the snatch, at least as a regular protocol.

http://www.maxwellsc.com/articles.cfm?art_id=3130&startrow=1
 
"I disagree with the comments so far that suggest the snatch is a better test of fitness or measurement of work capacity than the swing. Work capacity should be tested by a lift with little or no technical skill element, else those factors detract from the ability to demonstrate capacity."

I think Al's point is that the snatch provides an objective way to test work capacity, since it has a legitimate end point- the lockout.  If you and I both do 10 proper snatches, then we know exactly what we have done.  Swings are a different story.  How high were the swings?  Bud Jeffries does thousands of swings at a time, but some are not even waist high.  Crossfitters swing overhead.  Most SFG folks tend to swing until the arm is about parallel to the deck.  Because swings can vary, they are not an objective way to compare work capacity.

Work capacity should be demonstrated "by a lift with little or no technical skill element"- I'm not sure such a thing exists, for several reasons.  First, a lift is, by definition, an objectively graded movement with a beginning and an end.  Perhaps you mean an exercise.  The snatch is a lift, the swing is an exercise.

Second, strength is a skill.  Work capacity is the ability to demonstrate strength over time.

Third, what movement has no technical skill learning curve?  The swing certainly does.  Watch a video of Al Ciampa swinging, then watch Jillian Michaels.  One knows how to swing,  and the other does not.  Asking someone to demonstrate work capacity through the kettlebell swing without any technical proficiency is a recipe for injury.  That's why Pavel emphasizes practicing, rather than "working out", and testing only after proficiency is gained.

 
 
I don't really accept the premise of the OP that the snatch needs some justification, and that that justification is harder to provide than for other exercises. All exercises have benefits and drawbacks, which are usually relative to the individual.

Do that which makes sense to you, that provides the training effect you seek and that you enjoy.

Personally, I feel like over the years, I have gotten much more out of snatches than get ups, and I certainly enjoy them a whole lot more.

 
 
I don't understand why there needs to be a justification. If you like them do them, if not don't.  I love the snatch. To me no other exercise mixes conditioning and strength like it.  However, I see it's downside.  Rough on the hands, and elbows.

I don't do pistols.  Not interested, would rather do double front squats.  That doesn't mean I need to justify its value.  It's just not for me.

If swings are your thing, swing away.

Maxwell has been pushing the elephant up the stairs for a long time.
 
The snatch, like the C&J, in my humble opinion is the perfect marriage of strength and conditioning.  If I am in between programs I find I can base an entire workout around the snatch.  Snatches alone are a tremendous body composition "improver" for a lack of a better term.

As Mr. Neupert has called them, the king sized killer.  I think it's well described as such.
 
I do a swing variation I haven't seen on youtube.  At the top do a hard shoulder retraction and a "proud chest."  It's more than a swing and less than a highpull.  I've had better luck with snatches lately by taking them in moderation and being super-strict about locking out and hinging all the way back.
 
6 months later and this is still what you're focused on? After many of us, including Pavel himself, gave perfectly reasonable explanations?

For anything and everything we do here, from snatches to deadlifts to get ups etc, you can find someone on the internet saying it's terrible and do the opposite. And if you don't want to do snatches, you could do S&S, PM, ROP (just do swings instead), KB Strong/One, many a Dan John workout, etc etc. Or you could use one of the many fine barbell programs out there.

I have a ton of respect for Steve Maxwell, and I'm a big fan of his son Zak, both as an artist and as a jiujitsu competitor. That having been said, at different points in his career Steve has said very different things about kettlebells, including saying that no one should use them at all. He does his own certification now, he can pursue his own vision. Pavel has strong first, and can do likewise.

 
 
I hate the Double Snatch but only because it is evil. :D

I don't do snatches often but there is certain amount of force and exact tension in the Snatch that for me has big carry over to Stand up fighting. So for me they are in the mix just not every week unless it is part of a program.(ROP,KB Muscle)
 
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