all posts post new thread

Bodyweight Why is a concentric only handstand push-up easier than a full one for me?!

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

bluejeff

Level 7 Valued Member
so occasionally I will test my handstand push-up, to see how close I am to getting freestanding ones. I’m still working on fixing some issues with my handstand otherwise I would be doing more full handstand push-up work.

The weird thing, though, is that occasionally I will try a handstand push-up from a headstand, with my head resting on the floor, and it is noticeably easier than if I lower myself from a handstand first. I’m not kipping either. I can get maybe twice as many reps this way (maybe 4-6 as opposed to 2-3). I’m not excited about developing a forehead callous or neck issues from this, so I don’t see myself doing a ton of it… but…

Any thoughts on this? I can’t think that I’ve read about this kind of effect anywhere yet. Perhaps some of our resident weightlifters, who do a lot of concentric only work, have some thoughts?
 
How do you get those 4-6 reps with concentric only handstands? You start in headstand, press up, and then go back to ground to again start in headstand position? If yes, and I cannot imagine how you could do it in another way, then you are giving yourself little breaks between consecutive reps, aren't you?

I think your brain plays a role here as well. Now I am actively working on freestanding HSPUs. I noticed that I naturally perform the eccentric phase very slowly, because there is nothing to absorb the shock if you just relax your hands (other than your head and neck ;) ). So you are naturally and perhaps subconsciously burning more energy for this. Compare it to push press or jerk, when you can do it, because you brace your abs and perform a dip with knees, so the shock is absorbed well.

And since I identified the eccentric phase as the most difficult one, I am focusing on it. I get into the handstand, and then go down slowly - sometimes more than 10 seconds. After this, I am almost never able to press back. However, when I do regular HSPUs for reps (but currently only 2/3 ROM, appr.), I can do up to 12 reps when I have a good day.

EDIT: and, of course, there is some geeky stuff on eccentric vs concentric. If remember correctly, this difference was described in Naked warrior, Pistol section - concentric only training incurs less wear and tear in the muscles, so that's the main reason it feels easier. I started with HSPU specific nuances before addressing elephant in the room.
 
Last edited:
Hi;
This is a very interesting, intellectual topic to me. I have no experience w HSPU and did not try to see difference in other exercises.

I can speculate that is related to how your nervous system reacts. And after understanding nervouses impact on strength my self ( longer topic, after a knee surgery) it is impossible to beat the system except greasing the groove… even then, if for some reason, humans in general or you individually wired like that, u might find to beat it very difficult.

I know I am just mumbling, but as I said, interesting one but no direct experience.
 
I've experienced this before, but i don't remember what lift / movement it was on. Maybe it was also HSPU. I assumed that the eccentric was too tiring or put me in a disadvantageous position because I couldn't hold form. Curious to see what people say on this.
 
Hello @bluejeff

"Why is a concentric only handstand push-up easier than a full one for me?"

I am not an expert in HSPUs but also do them as well to get some variety from regular OVH work. Maybe the concentric only is easier because you do not "exhaust" your muscles (especially shoulders, triceps and lats) during the eccentric phase. Indeed, even if it does not seem so, this phase is pretty demanding because you really have to control it to avoid hitting the ground with your head.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
It could be the controlled lowering. It’s not like you can splash down doing them because of your noggin. Have you tried making/buying a set of paralettes? No need to worry about the old noggin in that instance but then you have the full range of motion to contend with.
 
My first thought was exactly as some of you said: the eccentric is possibly sort of “pre fatiguing” the muscles.

@Kev yup I have three sets of parallettes haha. Low/medium/high heights.

If I can divorce myself from high frequency training I might consider a cycle of eccentrics. Every time I have focused on them my strength has improved. Maybe something like alternating sessions of eccentrics with concentric only?

The other thought I’ve had is isometrics, building an “isometric base” with pike push-up holds and then moving to hspu holds. I can do a freestanding hspu hold but depending on other concurrent training the hold time is 3-10 seconds…

Now that I wrote that… pike push-up isos sound like a good idea for solidifying form…

Now I’m rambling…thanks y’all
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kev
Hello @bluejeff

Varying the tempo is always a good idea to break plateau. Below is a recent A. Salkin's article which mentions it, with the regular OVH though, and other moves

“Can You Get Stronger Without Heavier Weights/Harder Exercises?”​


Here’s a great question I’ve been asked a time or two: “How can I get stronger without heavier weights or harder exercises?”
There’s a quote I really love from StrongFirst’s Chief Kettlebell Instructor, Brett Jones:

Lock me in a room with a 16 kg kettlebell and I will get stronger.”

A lot of people seem to think that the only way to get stronger is by adding more weight or adding more reps. And don’t get me wrong, both of these are sure-fire ways to get you stronger so long as you have a few things in order:
1) The right equipment for adding weight
2)
Enough time to do more reps
More often than not, this approach will only take you so far — particularly if you train at home and have only limited equipment, or if you have only, say, 20–30 minutes maximum to work out.
So does this mean you’ll have to be content to stay stuck at the same strength and fitness levels forever (or at least until your schedule clears up, you can afford heavier weights, and all the traffic lights of life turn up green for you)?
Hardly.
Kettlebell and bodyweight training offer a few unique options that can help you continue to build tons of useful, real-world strength, muscle, and endurance WITHOUT going heavier or training longer.

Kettlebell

-Ballistics: increase rep speed (i.e. swing/clean/snatch faster).
Remember Newton’s 3rd law: for every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction. The faster your reps are on the back swing, the harder your hams and glutes will contract, and the more strength you’ll build.
-Grinds: decrease rep speed (i.e. squat, press, row slower).
Time under tension not only requires your muscles to work harder, it really requires that you exert complete control and really OWN the movement. This is one of world class strength coach Charles Poliquin’s go-to methods for getting his Olympic-level athletes stronger. The extra weight comes later.

Bodyweight

-Reduce leverage (i.e. do one-arm pushups with your hand on a lower elevation — do pistols where you sit on a lower elevation) <- this one qualifies as “harder exercises”, so it may not be useful for you just yet, but it’s still an option
-Decrease rep speed: (same as with kettlebells)

Both

Increase density (i.e. perform more work in less time). This is one of the great things about kettlebell and bodyweight training — the fact that you can walk to your living room or backyard, knock out a quick workout, and be done for the day — no more than 30 second commute time, AND you’ll pack on some serious power and even muscle in the process.
A sample workout would be as follows:
Workout 1
A1) Military press: 5 reps (@ tempo of 2 seconds up on each rep, 4 seconds down)
A2) Pullup: 5 reps (@ tempo of 2 seconds up, 4 seconds down)
A3) Front squat: 5 reps (@ tempo of 2 seconds up, 4 seconds down)
One set on the minute — rest 1 minute before starting circuit over again. Repeat x 3
Total time: 12 minutes

B1) 10 power swings
One set on the minute x 10 sets
Total workout time: 22 minutes

Workout 2

A1) Military press: 5 reps (@ tempo of 2 seconds up on each rep, 4 seconds down)
A2) Pullup: 5 reps (@ tempo of 2 seconds up, 4 seconds down)
A3) Front squat: 5 reps (@ tempo of 2 seconds up, 4 seconds down)
One set on the minute — rest 30 sec before starting circuit over again. Repeat x 3
Total time: 10.5 minutes

B1) 10 power swings
One set every 50 seconds x 10 sets
Total time: 8+ minutes

Total workout time: 19ish minutes

This is far from easy, but light years more effective than waiting around and twiddling your thumbs until you have more time/more weight to work with.
Best of all, it will help you make the most of your training time — particularly if you are limited to only a few training days a week. Not only will you make huge strides with less overall work, but you’ll have some major results to show for it. Maybe it sounds hard to believe, but give it a shot — I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.


Kind regards,

Pet'
 
The more i think about this, the more I think it was HSPU that I had the same problem with. I made some progress on the problem by doing HSPUs for high-rep sets with my head touching a pile of books and then I slowly removed books over time, increasing the ROM. Since then I've stopped doing HSPU, replacing them with pseudo-planche push-ups (which I feel works the shoulders better), but if I was going to return to them I'd try Yaad's progression: he really stresses getting strong in the bottom position and I think that would eliminate the problems caused by the eccentric.
 
Since then I've stopped doing HSPU, replacing them with pseudo-planche push-ups (which I feel works the shoulders better), but if I was going to return to them I'd try Yaad's progression: he really stresses getting strong in the bottom position and I think that would eliminate the problems caused by the eccentric.
Interesting. Do you feel the delts more in PPP (pseudo planche push-ups)? When I do PPP I feel my chest working intensely. I have noticed that working hspu it’s hard for me to feel the delts as much; it’s something I think I need to work on, also I’m the bottom position. Maybe more support for the idea of doing some dedicated isometric work there…
 
Interesting. Do you feel the delts more in PPP (pseudo planche push-ups)? When I do PPP I feel my chest working intensely. I have noticed that working hspu it’s hard for me to feel the delts as much; it’s something I think I need to work on, also I’m the bottom position. Maybe more support for the idea of doing some dedicated isometric work there…
Yeah, I feel the delts working more in the PPP and... it just feels better altogether. HSPU never feels good to me. Like, physically, in the joint.

Although, I should note that lately I've been doing front load carries with the 1.5pd and 2pd kettlebell and they feel really, really good in my shoulders and upper back. I bet that's how HSPU and pike push-ups are supposed to feel, but for some reason they don't. I feel like once I get upside down, something goes wrong in my alignment and my shoulder joints bear more stress than they should. I don't have this problem when pressing KBs or doing PPP, so I'm not sure what's going on. If i had to guess, I'd guess my old kyphotic posture still persists when I load my body over my spine, but I'm not an expert.
 
The clock is ticking the instant you begin to load, the minute you approach the handstand. Also the headstand start allows take off from a stable base.

And yes, the eccentric is very fatiguing esp with a rapid turn around at the bottom.
 
Yeah, I feel the delts working more in the PPP and... it just feels better altogether. HSPU never feels good to me. Like, physically, in the joint.

Although, I should note that lately I've been doing front load carries with the 1.5pd and 2pd kettlebell and they feel really, really good in my shoulders and upper back. I bet that's how HSPU and pike push-ups are supposed to feel, but for some reason they don't. I feel like once I get upside down, something goes wrong in my alignment and my shoulder joints bear more stress than they should. I don't have this problem when pressing KBs or doing PPP, so I'm not sure what's going on. If i had to guess, I'd guess my old kyphotic posture still persists when I load my body over my spine, but I'm not an expert.
It took me literally like 3 years to get pike push-ups to not just load my neck and traps. The way they feel on my shoulders now (which is great, 95% of the time) is a lot like how a bottoms up KB rack feels. Delts and serratus.

Part of the issue translating to hspu for me is some lingering left shoulder posture/mobility/something. Also when the load gets to great, I lose the good joint orientation I have in pike push-up.
 
Hello @bluejeff

Did you try "shoulder dislocates" to gain mobility ? "Skin the cat" may also be interesting

Kind regards,

Pet'
Yeah I have. I do hangs, stretches, all that stuff. My mobility issue is less of a flexibility issue and more of an active range of motion issue. It’s like past a certain range of shoulder flexion my scapular muscles give up and my scapula elevates and slightly retracts instead of staying close to the ribs/packed/etc. The issue makes it so that if I do a full handstand my body twists.

Someone will ask so I added a photo. This is a balanced handstand that feels straight to me! But…..You can see my hips twisting. While the hips might be part of the issue, it’s the left shoulder that I think is really the culprit. Basically, if you can imagine it from this angle, my left lower ribs flare up (on the front of my body) but not my right, and this pulls my hips along. It also makes the left side of my neck tight because the shoulder isn’t in the right position. If I look in the mirror and raise my hands overhead without tensing my abs, I can see the twist happen on the front side too. I’m basically trying to increase the ROM of my left scapula.
 

Attachments

  • 3A3E3DD6-E85D-4CEA-AA22-A98B75A601BB.png
    3A3E3DD6-E85D-4CEA-AA22-A98B75A601BB.png
    507.3 KB · Views: 8
Hello @bluejeff

That's probably because the ink of your tattooes is too heavy :p

All kidding aside, did you try to work on partial ROM ?

For instance, 4-6 reps at the beginning, then rest. Then 4-6 at the middle (roughly), then rest. Then 4-6 at the bottom (when the head almost touches the ground). You can do the whole process 2-3 times.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
It took me literally like 3 years to get pike push-ups to not just load my neck and traps. The way they feel on my shoulders now (which is great, 95% of the time) is a lot like how a bottoms up KB rack feels. Delts and serratus.

Part of the issue translating to hspu for me is some lingering left shoulder posture/mobility/something. Also when the load gets to great, I lose the good joint orientation I have in pike push-up.

This conversation had me thinking about HSPUs again, so I got upside down and tried a few. They felt terrible. Then I extended my thoracic spine / lowered my rib cage and they felt pretty good. I can't believe that's been the trouble all these years. I might have to start working them into the rotation in a few months.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom