Kettlebell Why is this?

[305pelusa]

but Occam's razor doesn't mean the simplest explanation is always correct.

0_o I completely agree that's why I said:

Might not be correct, but definitely most likely.

That you apparently haven't doesn't mean it doesn't work for most people.

Not sure why you assumed it hasn't happened to me. Happens all the time. It's certainly not specific to KBs. As an example, once, I shifted my gaze upwards in Pullups and suddenly added 10 lbs to my weighted max. I remember being so perplexed, mindblown and excited. Told all of my friends to try it, but somehow they weren't getting such a great result.

After some thought, I understand that maybe there is some sneaky neurological reflex that I made use of. What is more likely, however, is that the psychological approach of going to a Pull-up with a "new trick" is exactly what suddenly helped so much.

This is all well explained in Psych by Dr. Judd, from this very website. I assume you've read it Steve so you know I'm not just making this stuff up. Power of belief is not only real, but it occurs so often it must always be accounted for. That's all

 

[Bill Been]

It's not the case that the guy who's challenging the idea of a causal connection between 10 swings and a better press is required to provide proof of the lack of a connection. It is up to those of you who believe there is a causal connection to establish some reasonable mechanism through which such a connection might function. Until then, it is as 305pelusa has said: placebo effect.

Belief in something due to what later turns out to be placebo effect - like acupuncture, cupping, dry needling, "fascial manipulations", kiniseotape, etc - does not constitute a moral or intellectual failing as it is utterly central to the human experience.

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa - honest question here - I have seen you taking a contrarian view point on statements made by trained professionals like Steve, Matt and Harald.

Believe it or not, I agree with Steve and Harald far more than I disagree with them (not sure who Matt is). Obviously if I disagree it might catch more attention than if I agree, so there's some bias there. I'm not saying they're wrong either; they might very well be right. I just think there's a much bigger factor at play.

You seem to be an educated as well as opinionated fellow, would you mind sharing your credentials?

No offense intended, I sincerely enjoy challenging dogma and popular opinion. Just trying to add some context to your point of view.

None taken. I know how heavy I can be. Anyways, recently graduated from my Electrical Engineering Bachelor's at MIT, and now doing Grad school there as well.

As far as context, I'm glad to hear you like challenging dogma. I don't personally like that, but I do think we need people that do such as yourself! I do apologize if I sound harsh, or I'm belittling OP's performance. I think it's excellent results and goes to show how much there is to gain from believing, focusing, and trusting a process like SF. As far as @Steve Freides is concerned, he's answered me questions and helped me with programming more times than I could count. His advice is simply always on point and I never feel the need to go against him out of enjoyment. Solely to point something he might have missed.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Having different opinions and discussing them is one of the reasons forums exist in the first place and this forum here is actually the only fitness forum I know of where you can have an honest, civilized discussion without people insulting each other or holding a grudge for not agreeing with them.

 

[MattM]

@Baker I always enjoy a contrarian point of view, especially when it's well thought out.

That's how stuff gets done and problems get figured out.

And if by Matt you meant me, I am most certainly not a trained professional. Just a guy who enjoys the strength and conditioning world and who just happened to take the SFG (and pass).

 

[rickyw]

Believing that Swings neurally primes you and strengthens your press does more for your press psychologically than the actual physical priming itself.

The OP wasn't believing doing swings would prime his presses, he was just doing swings to fill the time in between presses and found an unexpected benefit. So this argument is not valid in his case.

 

[rickyw]

Belief in something due to what later turns out to be placebo effect - like acupuncture, cupping, dry needling, "fascial manipulations", kiniseotape, etc - does not constitute a moral or intellectual failing as it is utterly central to the human experience.

Bill, if you believe dry needling is placebo, then you have not been exposed to the newer research I have been exposed to.

 

[305pelusa]

The OP wasn't believing doing swings would prime his presses, he was just doing swings to fill the time in between presses and found an unexpected benefit. So this argument is not valid in his case.

That was just a blanket statement. An example as to how placebo can manifest. If scientists were to study how squats get affected after jumps (which has been shown to have some neural priming properties), placebo is certainly to be accounted for. Because the belief the jumps would help, messes the experiment up.

As far as how placebo works in this particular scenario, the fact that the OP feels like his Swings make his Presses feel better, somehow giving him more "abdominal tension" is a perfect example of this sneaky effect. Maybe they physiologically do. But I think the psychological effect is important to remember as well.


Don't you remember all the runners and soccer and basketball players doing long static stretch warm ups because then, when they'd run, they'd feel "better" and more "comfortable"? And then science showed it is not only useless, but can be detrimental, and now dynamic warm-ups are in?

Or as Pavel says, "Whether you think you need to stretch, or you don't, you're right". It's the simple power of expectations.

Hopefully that clarifies a bit

 

[rickyw]

@305pelusa , I understand your argument and take your point.

I do think, however, that it is detrimental to progress to assign unexplained results to placebo effect when it has not been proved to be placebo affect.

As far as an explanation for the op s results, repeated contraction leads to greater tension, called the muscle treppe effect, which may be one plausible explanation for what he is experiencing.

 

[Harald Motz]

I agree with Steve and Harald far more than I disagree with them

Placebo most likely.

on the very first sight I disagreed, but very soon I agreed to this simple, maybe always fitting statement. I more agree with it than not. Believe it or not.

 

[305pelusa]

As far as an explanation for the op s results, repeated contraction leads to greater tension, called the muscle treppe effect, which may be one plausible explanation for what he is experiencing.

Look Ricky. Bear with me. Muscle treppe is the effect caused by repeated electrical stimulation, with identical stimuli (pulses) at a frequency specific to that of a muscle's fibers, which seems to increase in response because sodium can't be cleared as fast. It's similar to twitching and comes from the cardiac world as you can imagine. Vaguely remember this from Biophysics and there doesn't seem to be much info online so correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways, I personally don't see that occurring here. These aren't electrical stimulations, they're just voluntary contractions. Each swing isn't an identical stimuli to the one before, the frequency of swinging is magnitudes lower than stimulation frequencies of the heart. Muscle treppe, as well as twitching, can be visibly seen in a muscle. It rapidly pulsates. It's happened to me in the past. Even if somehow the OP forget to mention his glutes twitching after the swings, that doesn't mean his presses will be better. They aren't even the same muscles doing the work!

The reality is that I saw your comment about muscle treppe and while I thought it was unlikely, I just simply wrote what I thought made sense. That's it. I'm not telling other people that they're wrong (except now to an extent, since I think it's fair as you've brought it up again). In fact, look back. First person quoting others, telling them they "disagree" isn't even me. I'm just saying my unbacked theory, just like everyone else did.

I do think, however, that it is detrimental to progress to assign unexplained results to placebo effect when it has not been proved to be placebo affect.

I'm not sure why you think it's detrimental. But even though you do, the OP is looking for reasons. I think the power of expectations can be a reasonable cause, so I wrote it. Others were also writing what they thought it was (muscle treppe, neural priming, etc) even though they also weren't proving it. I don't think that's detrimental at all though. If anything, it gives OP perspective and makes the thread more useful to anyone who reads it.

Anyways, I didn't want to derail OP's thread like this at all. I like this community and I don't want to be in bad terms with it so I'll just shut up now. I think we're all on the same page

 

[Anna C]

I have no opinion on the matter, but I like reading all of yours.

 

[rickyw]

The reality is that I saw your comment about muscle treppe and while I thought it was unlikely, I just simply wrote what I thought made sense. That's it. I'm not telling other people that they're wrong (except now to an extent, since I think it's fair as you've brought it up again). In fact, look back. First person quoting others, telling them they "disagree" isn't even me. I'm just saying my unbacked theory, just like everyone else did.

Touche!

Look Ricky. Bear with me. Muscle treppe is the effect caused by repeated electrical stimulation, with identical stimuli (pulses) at a frequency specific to that of a muscle's fibers, which seems to increase in response because sodium can't be cleared as fast. It's similar to twitching and comes from the cardiac world as you can imagine. Vaguely remember this from Biophysics and there doesn't seem to be much info online so correct me if I'm wrong.

Treppe, otherwise known as the staircase effect, leads to increased strength of contraction. It is also observable in skeletal muscle. I find two explanations for this. One, as you mentioned is a build up of calcium (not sodium) within the sarcoplasm because the contractions happen so quickly that calcium is not cleared back into the sarcoplasmic reticulum. I find this explanation less plausible, because once the muscle truly has a break the calcium should all be cleared back into the SR. Also, as you have mentioned, the contractions from swinging are different than repeated muscle twitches. The other effect is that through repeated contraction, heat is generated, which decreases internal resistance in the muscle fibers and makes the sarcoplasm less viscous, allowing more energy to be used to generate contraction instead of overcoming resistance. The second explanation makes more sense in the OPs case-he can generate greater tension through his glutes and abs and forearms because he is continually priming the enzymatic processes of those muscle fibers, literally keeping them "warmed up", which makes his press feel easier due to a better base of support. But it's just my opinion.

Anyways, I personally don't see that occurring here. These aren't electrical stimulations, they're just voluntary contractions.

The nervous system is electrical, in a sense.

I'm not sure why you think it's detrimental. But even though you do, the OP is looking for reasons. I think the power of expectations can be a reasonable cause, so I wrote it. Others were also writing what they thought it was (muscle treppe, neural priming, etc) even though they also weren't proving it. I don't think that's detrimental at all though. If anything, it gives OP perspective and makes the thread more useful to anyone who reads it.

I bow to you here. I stated what I did about placebo because in my personal experience I have encountered those around me who would assign the "placebo effect" to those things that they would rather not try and understand, thus limiting their potential for growth. I do agree with you however, that placebo should always be considered.

Cheers

 

[North Coast Miller]

A very interesting conversation to be sure.

Is possible the minimal activation in the pressing muscles from swings is clearing/recharging the muscles faster than standing still.

Without speculating further, I suspect over time the effect will diminish. When I'm pressing heavy (or doing anything heavy) I find any extra activity between sets other than shaking it out and deep slow breathing, saps my energy.

 

[guardian7]

0_o I completely agree that's why I said:



Not sure why you assumed it hasn't happened to me. Happens all the time. It's certainly not specific to KBs. As an example, once, I shifted my gaze upwards in Pullups and suddenly added 10 lbs to my weighted max. I remember being so perplexed, mindblown and excited. Told all of my friends to try it, but somehow they weren't getting such a great result.

After some thought, I understand that maybe there is some sneaky neurological reflex that I made use of. What is more likely, however, is that the psychological approach of going to a Pull-up with a "new trick" is exactly what suddenly helped so much.

This is all well explained in Psych by Dr. Judd, from this very website. I assume you've read it Steve so you know I'm not just making this stuff up. Power of belief is not only real, but it occurs so often it must always be accounted for. That's all

Yes, I counted down instead of up for my target pullups and got an extra rep in that has been stable for a couple of weeks so far. No other factors I can think of! It is possible I was ready for it physically but counting down is strangely motivating like a launch countdown.