Barbell Why not RSR?

[Basil]

Here is the link to Brett Jones's article on the Russian Squat Routine (RSR).

I have been doing PTTP for the last 4 months. I have gone from a 5RM of 255 lbs. to 275 lbs., and hopefully 285 lbs. this week. My deadlift has increased 5-10lbs per month.

I have a rare, clear training window of 3-5 months starting October 27th, and I want to maximize that time. This is enough time to do the Pre-RSR followed by one or two cycles of RSR (with a week rest between each).

Over the next 3 months:
Without RSR: I feel confident I can add 15-30 lbs. to my 5RM if progress continues like this.
With RSR: I am hoping to add 30+ lbs to my 5RM.

At my stage of training is there any reason NOT to do this?
Will it affect future gains when I return to PTTP later on?
Are the RSR gains worth the risk at this stage?

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

I think if you continue making gains on PTTP, continue until you can not. One thing you don't want to do, is get into the habit of switching programs while you are making progress on them. It is easy to get distracted by new reps, new layout, new everything. The RSR can be a good program to do once the gains of PTTP dry out. Save the powerful medicine until you actually need it.

 

[User 7569]

sounds like PTTP is really working for you.

if I were you I would use that extra time on recovery instead of more training on a different program. jmo though

 

[PaulAtreides]

At my stage of training is there any reason NOT to do this?
Will it affect future gains when I return to PTTP later on?
Are the RSR gains worth the risk at this stage?

At my stage of training is there any reason NOT to do this?
I agree with Philippe Geoffrion: if you keep making good progress with PTTP, stick with PTTP. It generates almost no fatigue and you get some of the easiest strength gains you can get.
If you want to capitalize on the extra time, better add some mobility work or cardio, or even some assistance work (dead hangs, gym rings, etc.) as long as it doesn't interfere with your PTTP gains.

Will it affect future gains when you return to PTTP later on?
I couldn't tell you. my guess would be to some extent yes, but I may be completely off.

Are the RSR gains worth the risk at this stage?
You're approaching 300lbs, but what's your bodyweight?
for beginner to intermediate level, I would say save it for when you actually need it.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Over the next 3 months: Without RSR: I feel confident I can add 15-30 lbs. to my 5RM if progress continues like this.
With RSR: I am hoping to add 30+ lbs to my 5RM.

"Training Age"

Your "Training Age" is one of the determinate factors in how long you are able to make progress with a training program.

"Training Age" means the length of time you have been training.

Novice Lifter who are new to training maintain progress longer using the same program. Novice Lifter can usually maintain progress with program that are 8 - 12 week before they need to change their program.

Advance Lifter how have been training for years need to change their training program often to ensure progress. Advance Lifter program need to be changes about every 2 - 3 week.

Philippe Geoffrion's Recommendations

1) "...Continue until you can not." When something stop working, something need to change.

2) "...You don't want to... switching programs while you are making progress on them."

Training For Strength

Initially for Novice Lifters, training the same exercise movement will increase strength. However, eventually the cost is that it come at the expense of developing poor technique, a decrease in power, as a change in the muscle firing sequence.

So, Philippe said, continue with it until you stop making progress.

For more advances lifter interested in increasing strength in an exercise movement, utilizing Auxiliary Exercise that are similar in nature to the movement are more effective; allowing you to increase strength without compromising technique.

Training For Technique

This is best accomplished by "Practicing" the movement with low repetition (preferably 1 - 2 per set) with heavy load (80% plus) for multiple sets. The number of set is determined by muscle fatigue. Once muscle fatigue set in technique deteriorates.

"Everything Works but Nothing Works Forever."

Any new training program initially works. However, at some point, progress stops. That due to the "General Adaptation Syndrome" (dumbed down to the term "Muscle Confusion"). So, when the program does stop working, you need to change something.

With that said, it hard to predict how much you can add to your 5 RM.

At my stage of training is there any reason NOT to do this?

The program will increase you strength if is well executed.

Will it affect future gains when I return to PTTP later on?

Yes, you an increase in strength carry over to whatever program that follows.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

At my stage of training is there any reason NOT to do this?

If you don't think the volume and intensity will work for you - if it's going to be too hard - that's a reason not to do it.

I don't see anything else standing in your way. My vote is go for it.

-S-

 

[Tuebor]

Go for it. You have the time to recover from session to session. And who knows when you will get the opportunity to have a 3month window again. PTTP will still be available for you to utilize on your completion.

 

[ShawnM]

Give it a go. Unless you are training for a meet or some event there's no reason not to be able to switch things up every few months. You may very well get a decent carry over from the RSR to your deadlift.

 

[Basil]

Thank you all for your insight and opinions! My body weight is 185 lbs (5'10"), so my 5RM isn't huge and I know I could still milk PTTP for a while. My training age would be about 2 years, but only on a strength program consistently for one 3 month stretch before this current 4 month stretch. Mostly I would do PTTP every other month. I just didn't have the facilities to deadlift before, now I do.

Also I forgot to include that I would be using RSR for deadlifts, rather than squats. I will not be training for any meets.

My two worries are that: 1) After RSR, PTTP wave cycles would no longer work well for me. 2) RSR may only work a couple times. If I use it now, it won't be effective again if I get stuck later on.

Both PTTP and RSR work the 70-80%+ of 1RM, so I can't imagine either of them not being an effective way to get stronger.


In the article I originally linked to, Brett Jones gives his opinion (underlines are mine):

For the beginning trainee, please pick one of the brutally simple routines and follow it for the next few months. Then rotate to one of the other peaking routines. Spend your time building your base.

For the experienced trainee, please pick one of the brutally simple routines and follow it for a month or more. Then give the Pre-RSR routine a try. Following that you may pick either the full RSR or the peaking plan of Prof. Verkhoshansky. Experiment and find what works for you and your individual abilities.

How does one know where they fall on the continuum between beginner and experienced? I take this to mean a beginner is someone who can still benefit from standard linear progression (no waves or step cycles), does this sound right?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

My two worries are that: 1) After RSR, PTTP wave cycles would no longer work well for me. 2) RSR may only work a couple times. If I use it now, it won't be effective again if I get stuck later on.

Wave Cycle

By "Wave Cycle, I am guessing you mean a "Periodization Training Cycle"; a specific progressive overload perform for a number of week, with the final week being a max effort or near to it on your exercise movement.

It is then followed by a decrease in load, which may include some change in exercises, where you "Wave" back up to a max effort or near max effort in a certain number of weeks.

This "Periodiazation Training" method allows for muscle recovery. Recovery is where you become stronger or increase muscle mass, dependent how your program is written and followed.

2) RSR may only work a couple times. If I use it now, it won't be effective again if I get stuck later on.

Misinformation

You lack some fundamental understanding of the why's and how's of "Periodization Training, "Wave Cycles".

This bring us back to your fear of...

"If use it now, it won't be effective again if I get stuck later on."

Yes, continuing to preform the same program, same exercises, not employing a "Periodization Training Program" ensures less than optimal result.

One of the keys to maintaining progress is...

Varying Exercises

Research and anecdotal evidence has demonstrated that strength and/or size is optimized when exercises are varied/changed during training.

Varying an exercise can be as simple as changing your Squat Stance, going from a High Bar Squat to a Low Bar Squat, etc, with an exercise.

RSR, any trying method, can be successfully "Recycled" providing you cycle off of it for a few weeks before using it again.

The underlying mechanism is...

The General Adaptation Syndrome

Hans Seyle an Endocrinology, circa 1923, termed and define The General Adaptation Syndrome.

Selye determined that when the body is presented with a new type of stress (disease); you either adapt, become stronger, more resistant to the disease or you don't adapt and die.

The same occur with training, most things in life.

Thus, to optimize progress, you essentially need to "Trick your body" into becoming stronger or increasing muscle mass by varying your training in some way; varying exercises, progressively overloading (increasing stress), followed by recovery periods.

How does one know where they fall on the continuum between beginner and experienced? I take this to mean a beginner is someone who can still benefit from standard linear progression (no waves or step cycles), does this sound right?

Periodization Training Works For Everyone

Novice Lifters need to employ a Periodization Training (Waver Cycles) as do Advance Lifters.

As I noted in my previous post, the difference between Novice and Advanced is the length of the "Periodization Training Cycle'"

Novice Lifters can maintain the same training program for much longer, 8 - 12 weeks before making a change.

Advance Lifters need to change their program about every 3 - 4 week to maintain progress.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[frederickk]

Looked at this routine. I don't understand it.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Looked at this routine. I don't understand it.

Specifically, what don't you understand?

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Basil]

@kennycro@@aol.com Your explanation on periodization clarified a lot for me. H. Seyle's article on General Adaptation is an interesting theory that can be applied not only to strength, but to cold adaptation and disease adaptation. Thanks for bringing it up.

I finished my most recent cycle of PTTP. I failed to lift 287 lbs., then switched to 275 lbs. I only made 2x2 and 1x1 (sets x reps). I am not sure why my strength decreased after this latest cycle, but it is clear to me that I could benefit from changing up my periodization plan to RSR.

I started the Winter Log to keep me on track.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

I am not sure why my strength decreased after this latest cycle

Why do you think your strength decreased? Lifting 275 for less reps after failing a lift indicate fatigue more than anything else.

As for RSR, go for it. If you have the resource I don't see a reason not to.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I finished my most recent cycle of PTTP. I failed to lift 287 lbs., then switched to 275 lbs. I only made 2x2 and 1x1 (sets x reps). I am not sure why my strength decreased after this latest cycle, ...

"The Devil Is In The Details"

It's hard to evaluate why you weren't successful without knowing more about your training program.

Being Sick Analogy

The information you provided amounts to going into see a physician: telling him/her that you are sick and want some medication.

It's impossible to prescribe the right medication for you sickness or prescribe the solution to your training program without more information.

Occam's Razor

In examining problems, most individual usually overthink the reasons why something didn't work.

Occam's Razor basically states, "The simplest solution is usually the right one." Which bring us to...

Shahaf Levin Post

As Shahaf stated, your reason for not succeeding was fatigue. In other words, the training program you set up and followed did not allow for complete muscle recovery that is necessary for an increase in strength.

... it is clear to me that I could benefit from changing up my periodization plan to RSR.

Philippe Geoffrion's Post

As he essentially stated in his post, "When something stops working, you need to change something."

Summary

The foundation of a good training plan incorporates...

1) Periodization Training: A training cycle that incorporates progressive loading over a number of weeks, with the final week being a max or near max effort in your training exercises.

It is then followed by dramatically dropping the load to something light and easy and starting all over with a new Periodization Training Cycle. This promotes recovery, leading to a increase in strength.

2) Varying Exercises: Research and anecdotal data have demonstrated optimal strength in a particular lift is increase when you change exercises: incorporate exercises that are similar in nature to the movement and have a similar Strength Curve.

Squat Exercise Variable Examples

1) High Bar Squat

2) Low Bar Squat

3) Wide Stance Squat

4) Narrow Stance Squat

5) Front Squat

6) Step Up or Lunges

...etc.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[MikeTheBear]

My two worries are that: 1) After RSR, PTTP wave cycles would no longer work well for me. 2) RSR may only work a couple times. If I use it now, it won't be effective again if I get stuck later on.

Remember the first time you ever drank coffee? I do because I was wired for nearly the whole day. Now I need 2-3 cups in the morning just to feel like a human. Same thing with other substances and drugs. If you stop drinking coffee for a while and the start back up again, the effects are more potent.

Training plans kind of work that way too. A beginner doing an advanced plan is like giving espresso to someone who has never had caffeine - it's overkill. Also, a beginner probably has no idea what his or her true 1RM is, and since most advanced plans are based on percentages of 1RM, it'll just be a mess.

In your case, it sounds like you've been "drinking coffee" for some time now so you can try an espresso. As long as you don't do the RSR back to back to back it will keep working. I have been fascinated with the RSR for some time now, and trainees who like to cycle in the RSR into their training say they run it about 2 times a year with several months between the two cycles and they get great results all the time. There's no reason why doing the RSR would make PttP stop working. Training isn't exactly like drinking coffee. With chemicals such as caffeine, the receptor cells for the chemical will actually desentize, and in extreme cases the desensitization becomes permanent. With training, the body will respond as long as the stimulus is different. There is anecdotal information where advanced lifters switched to a basic program to give themselves a break and experienced new gains.

 

[Basil]

I just finished the 5th week of Pre-RSR, and the results were disappointing.

Before Pre-RSR my max was probably 280 lbs. (Failed a 287 lbs attempt but could pull 275 lbs. five times.)

After Pre-RSR I attempted 290 lbs. and failed. I tried 285 lbs. and it failed at my knees. I think I could have pulled 285 lbs. if I hadn't tried the 290 lbs. first though.

Optimistically I improved my 1 RM by 5 lbs., but was not able to prove it. Details are in my log on the training forum (link in my post above).

I am going to move on to the RSR next week and see how it goes.

 

[Al Ciampa]

I just finished the 5th week of Pre-RSR, and the results were disappointing.

Before Pre-RSR my max was probably 280 lbs. (Failed a 287 lbs attempt but could pull 275 lbs. five times.)

After Pre-RSR I attempted 290 lbs. and failed. I tried 285 lbs. and it failed at my knees. I think I could have pulled 285 lbs. if I hadn't tried the 290 lbs. first though.

Optimistically I improved my 1 RM by 5 lbs., but was not able to prove it. Details are in my log on the training forum (link in my post above).

I am going to move on to the RSR next week and see how it goes.

Your 1RM is too close to what you can do for 5. Perhaps you never spent enough time with heavy low rep sets? Technical flaw that is amplified through heavier loads? Check these.

Next, and this is my opinion only, some respond better to volume and some to load. For YOU, this particular program might be in no man’s land.

I would continue on as planned, and log the details. Whether it plays out well or not, you still have a learning tool in your records.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

I just finished the 5th week of Pre-RSR, and the results were disappointing.

Before Pre-RSR my max was probably 280 lbs. (Failed a 287 lbs attempt but could pull 275 lbs. five times.)

After Pre-RSR I attempted 290 lbs. and failed. I tried 285 lbs. and it failed at my knees. I think I could have pulled 285 lbs. if I hadn't tried the 290 lbs. first though.

Optimistically I improved my 1 RM by 5 lbs., but was not able to prove it. Details are in my log on the training forum (link in my post above).

I am going to move on to the RSR next week and see how it goes.

Well, I re-read the article and your log. I'll be straight forward. You have no right do be disappointed from Pre-RSR because of the simple reason that you didn't follow the program.

You used the set-rep scheme of Pre-RSR but you used your own intensities. Pre-RSR has two sessions above 80%, one of them 90%. You had six sessions above 80% and two over 90% with one of 98%(!) for for triple and two doubles. You only had one session following the program, the first one. Since day 3 of week 1 your intensity was 6 to 8% higher than the program you wanted to follow. These are huge differences. Even calculating from your "expected" 290 max you are around 5% higher than the program.

I think you just burned out and are fatigued for a long time. Similar thing happened to you on PttP. I suggest you'll rest and recover for a week or two, than follow the plan as written.


Your training compared to Pre-RSR
Week 1
You: 70-73-76%
P-RSR: 70-70-70%

Week 2
You: 82-76- 76%
P-RSR: 75-70-70%

Week 3
You: 82-87-76%
P-RSR: 75-80-70%

Week 4
You: 93-87-98% (failed last 2 sets)
P-RSR: 85-80-90%

 

[Basil]

@Al_Ciampa Thanks for the feedback! No, I have never worked with heavy low rep sets, only sets of 5 as per PTTP unless I was fatigued and couldn't make all 5. Technique is another issue because I wasn't completely consistent with my technique. Some days I pulled on my heels more than others.

@Shahaf_Levin Thanks for this observation, and I think I do need to decrease the intensity for my next round of RSR. I had set my 100% at 305 lbs. for Pre-RSR based on feel. 70% of 280 is 195, and this was so light that my form didn't feel right during the pull. I never felt burned out during Pre-RSR but that doesn't mean I wasn't. I appreciate you taking a look at the log and assisting me.

I will definitely take a week off, lower my 1 RM, and see how the next cycle goes!