watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I guess I don't understand your question, then
Other/Mixed Why Peter Attia Changed His Mind on Fasting
- Thread starter watchnerd
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
I guess I don't understand your question, then
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I guess from my POV, its already been proven that IF has no real advantage over any other isocaloric meal timing pattern in terms of body comp.
For autophagy it holds a theoretical advantage over exercise triggered autophagy, but by how much interms of longevity hasn’t and probably will never be established. Likewise for immune response.
If it fits with a lifestyle or is more easily tolerated by the digestive system, more power to ya. As a longevity increasing strategy, IDK. If it is at odds with increasing or maintaining muscle mass, then the older athlete should be even more wary.
For autophagy it holds a theoretical advantage over exercise triggered autophagy, but by how much interms of longevity hasn’t and probably will never be established. Likewise for immune response.
If it fits with a lifestyle or is more easily tolerated by the digestive system, more power to ya. As a longevity increasing strategy, IDK. If it is at odds with increasing or maintaining muscle mass, then the older athlete should be even more wary.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I just get the point in these longevity studies where I don't care if I get 5 more years of life if it means living like calorically restricted lab rat or becoming a Loma Linda retiree.
No one has mentioned the Warrior Diet approach, which is under-eat then over-eat as opposed to fasting then eating. It's what I've been doing for years. Typically I have a small protein bar (10-12 gr of protein, 200-ish calories) with vitamins and coffee in the morning, and usually something else small before my big teaching block which is about 3:30 to 8 PM. I'm happy with my body composition, have been in the same weight class for 20 years, and my deadlift numbers keep going up.
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North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
And there it is. The studies that demonstrate clear efficacy are NOT replicated on people. And you can gain 5 years by quitting smoking. If you already exercise and don’t smoke, what are you looking at? A month, three, six maybe? Given the metas that show marginally overweight people live longer on average, you might equal the longevity of someone who doesn’t count macros and never misses a dessert.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
But, as far as I know, all the longevity studies point to actual fasting as the trigger for all the cellular hoo ha.
The theory I've heard is that the cells go into "garbage clean up mode" to scavenge energy from leftover junk lying around.
Halfakneecap
Level 6 Valued Member
Pretty much everybody intermittently fast’s when they’re asleep too.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Not me.
Big glass of milk + whey protein powder in bed leaves a big bollus of protein in my belly during my peak anabolic window.
Depriving my body of food during prime anabolic zone always seemed sub optimal if I want to stay jacked and tan.
I mostly fast when I wake. Breakfast is a latte, and I don't eat anything else until lunch, and that's usually a salad.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
IIRC last I looked it up there are only like two studies that measured autophagy and fasting. Both of them had mixed results. These were human trials. One pointed out that to replicate the effects of a 4 day rat fast you would have to fast long enough to lose 20% of your bodyweight.
Which to be fair, has been done by a few people. But also, probably don’t do that.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Well, I think those wanting human trials are overlooking the local history of Olalla, WA, where I just bought a new waterfront house.
Actually I bet her pitch that "disease lay in food - specifically too much of it" would work just fine today. The fasting sounds pretty contemporary:
The Doctor Who Starved Her Patients to Death
Linda Hazzard killed as many as a dozen people in the early 20th century, and they paid willingly for it
Oh, but then she was tried for manslaughter because people died after fasting too long....(although modern SAD diet overweight people probably would last longer)....
Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
Intermittent Feasting. I like that! I do that. usually 16/8 sometimes 18/6, and even 20/4 or 14/10 1or2 per month. It depends on the workday and where I am at the key times. But I 100% ensure that I wait 12 hours after dinner before the next meal. almost zero misses on this for many years...the only times that I allowed myself to slip was when I had health issues becuase emotional eating does have it's place in a healthy lifestyle. I am now working hard to overcome the month of slippage (oct/nov 22)
I have no fear of eating 'badly' now and then and will 'fix it' over the next few days. My feasting sessions are almost always well balanced between meat, veggies, fruit, bread/rice/pasta/etc, eggs, dairy. I believe that I may not eat well balanced every-day but I do eat well balanced every week.
From the discussion: Peter Attia did not do intermittent fasting properly, so it should not be compared 100% to IF. yes, one can draw comparisons between different diets and fasting versions, however, one cannot draw a conclusion from 1 type of fast and use that to describe teh effects of all other types of fasting. That portrays some deep level of bias.
I have no fear of eating 'badly' now and then and will 'fix it' over the next few days. My feasting sessions are almost always well balanced between meat, veggies, fruit, bread/rice/pasta/etc, eggs, dairy. I believe that I may not eat well balanced every-day but I do eat well balanced every week.
From the discussion: Peter Attia did not do intermittent fasting properly, so it should not be compared 100% to IF. yes, one can draw comparisons between different diets and fasting versions, however, one cannot draw a conclusion from 1 type of fast and use that to describe teh effects of all other types of fasting. That portrays some deep level of bias.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
He wasn't trying to do IF.
He was trying to do sustained fasting for longevity reasons.
I'm not sure why people keep bringing up IF; IF is not the same thing as going several days or a week with water only.
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guardian7
Level 6 Valued Member
Geoff Neupert argues that the body is built for feast/famine cycles so waving nutrition as well as workouts is best. He argues for fasting and feasting (not junk just not worrying about calories) in the same week in one of his newsletter emails. In short, excessive calorie reduction starts to impact metabolism, so it needs a reset. The latter is not a new idea but I think waving calories in the same week might be. Not to mention the need for protein to repair and build muscle mass.
Tim Ferris said something similar a while ago in the four hour body book. Not that he is the expert but he is pretty good at identifying trends and synthesizing info from experts. I learned about kettlebells for the first time from his book.
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TimothyGander
Level 5 Valued Member
Spartan Agoge
Level 6 Valued Member
This is one of the biggest issues. Many people spin their wheels for decades because of this.
You must have only one goal for a specific period.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
The empirical data on longevity and diet from Blue Zone regions doesn't match this hypothesis.
The 7th Day Adventist vegetarians in Loma Linda and the Okinawans are not eating like hunter gatherers.
Conversely, places with existing hunter gatherers still living and eating partially like they used to (e.g. !Kung people in the Kalahari) are not Blue Zone hot spots noted for extreme longevity.
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ali
Level 7 Valued Member
So, has he now given up the keto grift? Realised too that fasting for long periods is not big and it's not clever.
He's a doctor. Help me makes sense of the utter madness in the longevity market.
Interesting story about the doctor-not-a-doctor 'fasting specialist'....I'm a fasting specialist too: once a week go out and run as fast as you can.
He's a doctor. Help me makes sense of the utter madness in the longevity market.
Interesting story about the doctor-not-a-doctor 'fasting specialist'....I'm a fasting specialist too: once a week go out and run as fast as you can.
Jacobcutt
Level 5 Valued Member
This is why I respect and totally identify with Pavel's perspective on the nutrition side of things. When it comes to strength training, I've been able to draw some a few maxims that govern training. When it comes to nutrition, it's a bit more nebulous.
Maybe it comes down to simply moderating your intake somehow.
Maybe it comes down to simply moderating your intake somehow.
oab
Level 6 Valued Member
Blue zone hot spots represent epidemiological associations of people who seem to life longer. In other words, the blue zone is not just diet it is an association. The whole human responds 24 hours a day to all the inputs, processes and outputs that occur. There can be some variation within limits but if variation falls outside those limits then health and lifespan are affected. So, the blue zone regions diet may vary a bit from the paleo diet idea and the paleo idea will still remain true.
For example, if you take the mediterranean diet and remove grains and dairy then you have a diet that approximates the paleo diet. Note that dairy and grain consumption varies wildly throughout the mediterranean area. Some places eat a lot of grain some eat little or none. Same with dairy. The mediterranean diet actually eaten by the older ones in different countries was in fact highly variable and I'm not even sure it should be called that. ie it might be better to talk about sardinian diet and so on. Buzz terms like "blue zone" sound great but can be a bit misleading. Even more so when layered upon things like the mediterranean diet.
The Victorians in industrial England a couple of hunder years ago were thought to life short and brutal lives as the average life span was reduced compared to modern people. Then someone did some in depth work, published (from memory) in the proceedings of the royal society and discovered that the average life span was reduced by a large number of infant deaths. In modern times, medicine has stopped many of those deaths and so the average lifespan is lengthened. The Victorians lived about as long as modern people in England if you take out infant mortality.
On the Okinawans, the studies showing longevity are due to a diet that is rather similar to a hunter gatherer diet when these dietary analyses were done using data going back over the life span of the old Okinawans ie back to around 1900. From memory they ate a lot of pig meat and vegetables.
Vegetarianism is an idealogical choice. Simple macro and micronutrient analysis of a vegetarian diet makes clear that they always end up with nutritional deficiencies. Zinc, Iron, glycine, methionine are some examples of nutrients they don't get enough of. So, they are a poor model.
The Kung currently in Africa are living a second class life and on a second class diet as they have been displaced and put into limited areas as happened to the American Indians and the Australian Aborigines and other similar groups. So, whilst we can learn some things from them about how things used to be done within living memory most of the reliable data comes from work done back in the 1940s-1960s on the Kung when they were relatively uncontaminated by modern civilisation. At that point anthropologists were visiting and spending time living with small groups who were hunting and gathering. From memory we don't have a large bank of mortality statistics for the Kung during that time.