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Barbell Why Powerlifters Struggle with Weightlifting

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Christian Thibaudeau goes from snatch first working through progressively more complicated movements (hanging low pulls, high pulls, snatch deadlift, snatch deadlift to pulls, etc.) before moving to the clean and jerk. His explanation:

"Purpose of this phase: The goal for this first day of block one is to start programing the “explosive pull” movement pattern that drives the Olympic lifts.

We are focusing solely on the snatch because once the snatch has been mastered, the clean is very easy to learn. However the opposite is not true: a lot of already strong people who start by learning the clean will tend to “muscle the weight up” and never develop the optimal pattern with the lower body.

The way I teach technique is to teach “feels” on simpler exercises and gradually build them up toward the end goal while always trying to copy the feel from the simpler movement to the next step in complexity.

We will start with a stand-alone movement (snatch-grip power shrug from the hang) to be sure to truly master it and then we eventually will move on to complexes where we combine the simpler exercise with the next step in the same set. This will make it easier to learn the movement without having to focus on technical issues."
 
I imagine there are lots of ways to approach teaching someone the Olympic Lifts. But one thing I know is it doesn't have to be that complicated or take forever. In August of this year, I attended a 3-day weightlifting camp with coach Aimee Everett (she is an Olympic-level coach and also the wife of Greg Everett, both of Catalyst Athletics). We had 4 sessions, and in these 4 sessions we had over 25 women attending and 3 coaches (Aimee, Olympian Mattie Rogers, and the gym owner Chelsea) and EVERYONE learned and got coached on the snatch and C&J. We came in with a whole variety of backgrounds but 3 or 4 of the attendees had never done any weightlifting before and they were able to do everything in the sessions just like the rest of us. Basically we did this:
  • Friday afternoon session: Snatch technique work. Muscle snatch, tall snatch, slow snatch, overhead squat, snatch balance, and snatch.
  • Saturday morning session: C&J technique work; jerk footwork, clean practice (muscle clean, tall clean, floating clean, clean).
  • Saturday afternoon session: Snatches, working up to heavy. I and many others hit a PR snatch!
  • Sunday morning session: C&J drills, C&J warm-up, C&J singles, working up to heavy. Many hit a PR C&J!
So, to anyone agonizing over what order to learn things or how fast to progress to the full lifts, I say just find a good coach and get started! There is no perfect order.

Group photo - Aimee and Mattie are in the middle standing, I'm on the right side in the back next to a tall woman with red-hair.

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Anna C said:
I imagine there are lots of ways to approach teaching someone the Olympic Lifts. But one thing I know is it doesn't have to be that complicated or take forever. In August of this year, I attended a 3-day weightlifting camp with coach Aimee Everett (she is an Olympic-level coach and also the wife of Greg Everett, both of Catalyst Athletics). We had 4 sessions, and in these 4 sessions we had over 25 women attending and 3 coaches (Aimee, Olympian Mattie Rogers, and the gym owner Chelsea) and EVERYONE learned and got coached on the snatch and C&J. We came in with a whole variety of backgrounds but 3 or 4 of the attendees had never done any weightlifting before and they were able to do everything in the sessions just like the rest of us. Basically we did this:
  • Friday afternoon session: Snatch technique work. Muscle snatch, tall snatch, slow snatch, overhead squat, snatch balance, and snatch.
  • Saturday morning session: C&J technique work; jerk footwork, clean practice (muscle clean, tall clean, floating clean, clean).
  • Saturday afternoon session: Snatches, working up to heavy. I and many others hit a PR snatch!
  • Sunday morning session: C&J drills, C&J warm-up, C&J singles, working up to heavy. Many hit a PR C&J!
So, to anyone agonizing over what order to learn things or how fast to progress to the full lifts, I say just find a good coach and get started! There is no perfect order.

Group photo - Aimee and Mattie are in the middle standing, I'm on the right side in the back next to a tall woman with red-hair.

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What's with the cat??!!
 
Jeff Roark said:
seems like the more "wrong" that I do on any style of lifting, the stronger I get. Strange world it is.
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At the end of the day, the normal-sized kettlebells just aren't very heavy.

You don't really need a lot of secret technique to put them over your head if you're reasonably strong.

Any average-sized male who can can clean and press 135 lbs shouldn't find 32 kg KBs to be a big deal. A little practice is sufficient.

If we're talking about Girevoy sport and snatching KB for 10 minute straight, that's a different animal.
 
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bluejeff said:
Yeah I haven't either. I was referring to the discussion regarding Dan John (apparently) telling people they ought to be able to do a 2-minute overhead squat hold. I realize there is context there, but, as the discussion unfolded, that context was revealed. Also, not everyone will interpret things that way. I do see some stuff online and on social media about about "not loading a movement until the movement is 'perfect.'" Meanwhile, there are countless elite athletes who wouldn't pass those "tests."

Same with posture. Usain Bolt has scoliosis, Michael Phelps has kyphosis... Same with the "wide foot obsession." I am 100% on board with the idea that foot health has a HUGE impact on overall health, and. . .Having the ability to toe-spread, and the ability to move into and out of pronation seem to be key to improved movement, and....I have seen some photos of the feet of pro athletes who's feet are far from that idealized "optimal."

As with many other topics here, I think the key is "if you are making progress without pain, carry on." The short of it is that you have to start somewhere, and if you wait until your form is "perfect" to start really training, you won't get far.
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Maybe as a joke I said this, but I used two-minutes simply for the standard plank. Yes, I do recommend doing higher reps with the Overhead Squat for throwers...as I was told this (and I tell you).
 
watchnerd said:
I mostly ignore Dan John's opinions on weightlifting.

I like the guy, but it's really not his wheelhouse.

The way he teaches the snatch from a goblet squat position, for example, strikes me as pretty head scratching.
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I don't have any idea about what you said here. I use the GS to teach new people the Overhead Squat, yes...but what are you talking about?
 
Hung said:
@watchnerd @Anna C @MikeTheBear i always thought that first movement to learn is always front squat, then clean variations?
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I started with the front squat, which I learned on my own, and then went to coaching to learn the clean, so what you always thought seems also to be what I always thought. :) I've found that working on my front squat is good enough to let me improve my back squat with much less back squat training.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
I started with the front squat, which I learned on my own, and then went to coaching to learn the clean, so what you always thought seems also to be what I always thought. :) I've found that working on my front squat is good enough to let me improve my back squat with much less back squat training.

-S-
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I've seen some programs for Masters newbie weightlifters that leave out back squats entirely for the first 6 months.

There were a few rationales given:

1. What you said
2. Newbie lifters are usually more technique-limited as opposed to strength-limited, so the ability to add more load to the BSQ doesn't transfer over to lifts at first
3. Teaching the more upright posture is easier to do from the FSQ
4. Core and upper back strengthening
 
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