all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Why S&S isn't boring

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
@Bill Whorton what you are doing with carries sounds a lot like the Cook Drill only in reverse - he recommends starting with the waiter carry and then moving to racked and farmers as you get progressively more tired.
 
Pavel Macek said:
Being healthy, strong, in shape, and having enough time and juice for other activities is fun, not boring. SAS by the book without any modifications delivers.
Click to expand...

No one said it doesn't deliver.
To me Kettlebelephant explained very well Why he created this post and jusgeing by the ”likes”, at least 36 others did to. I really apprechiate that you took your time and made that ”add-on” list with your suggestions how to implement it!:)

When I reach simple I will probably not abandon S&S but instead run it together with strength aerobics, as sugessted by Pavel. For me, running is my ”strongfirst”, so the focus will shift to primary trail running and do S&S or/with Strength aerobic 2-3 times per week.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sometimes I still think its a boring routine, but results drive me. Results are much less obvious and progress on swings isn't that easy compared to TGU, which can be annoying even.

No more WTH effects though. But through S&S my vitality and resilience haven't been any higher before.

I cut the volume in half to be able to do at least something everyday, and combine it with another backbreaker. So far it feels good.
 
Thanks for this thread. I think it important to inspire confidence in alternative routes up the mountain as not only valid but in many cases preferred to accommodate unique constraints and objectives.
 
To confirm what @Stefan Olsson said, my intention was not to say that S&S needs the kind of variety I posted to be successful or produce results, but to give people some variations to stay entertained and stay on the course instead of abandoning the routine completely, because it bores the sh.. out of them.
Most people just don't have the stoic determination to only do the same 2 movements using the same rep scheme for months and months (maybe even years) and you shouldn't feel bad for it if you belong in the "most people"-group.
It's not a contest to determine who's "the most hardcore, oldschool badass who doesn't need variety" or anything. The human mind needs some variety.
You can either create that variety by abondoning the routine in favor of another one or staying with it and create some variety within the routine (within reason of course). I prefer the latter option and gave examples how to do that.

If you are one of the very few people who have absolutely no problem with doing the routine (without variety) for 18-24 months than good for you and you obviously don't need this thread :)
 
Gentlemen, just my 2 centy on S&S or better to say any other good long term program - no contradiction to the original (and excellent) post.
 
In defense of reaching different types of people, S&S is brilliantly productive and some people thrive on the routine nature as well. They would do well on endurance or weightlifting events, structured programs like 531 or any repetitive program. There are others whose brain chemistry is wired for variety and stagnate on routine. They can do well on S&S if they focus on changing daily rep schemes, technique points etc but its not what they flourish in. Crossfit, Westside, and many team sport athletes are frequently this way.

It's not that S&S wouldn't be physically great for them, but mentally its difficult. This is accepted practice in employment with temperament types by Keirsey and has been discussed since Plato. (Interestingly also the basis for the 4 characters in Wizard of Oz, houses in Harry Potter and girls in Sex in the City) So our greatest benefit will be helping people in a way they will flourish. Unfortunately I've struggled to get many people to reap the benefits of s&s because of the repetitive nature. There is a value to discipline and doing what is necessary, but that is frequently said by people who thrive on that setup. If we could bring the exercises and principles to people in other formats as well, it opens the door to more opportunities of real service. and that may be the buy in it takes for someone to spend a period committed to repetition. Maybe an approach that gives these people a "same but different" option. S&S is great, but on only if people do it. I'd love to hear ideas on how to adapt SF principles and programs to help all these other people.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Nate said:
In defense of reaching different types of people, S&S is brilliantly productive and some people thrive on the routine nature as well. They would do well on endurance or weightlifting events, structured programs like 531 or any repetative program. There are others whose brain chemistry is wired for variety and stagnate on routine. They can do well on S&S if they focus on changing daily rep schemes, technique points etc but its not what they flourish in. Crossfit, Westside, and many team sport athletes are frequently this way. It's not that S&S wouldn't be physically great for them, but mentally its difficult. This is accepted practice in employment with temperament types by Keirsey and has been discussed since Plato. (interestingly also the basis for the 4 characters in Wizard of Oz, houses in Harry Potter and girls in Sex in the City) So our greatest benefit will be helping people in a way they will flourish. unfortunately I've struggled to get many people to reap the benefits of s&s because of the repetative nature. they're is a value to discipline and doing what is necessary, but that is frequently said by people who thrive on that setup. if we could bring the exercises and principles to people in other formats as well, it opens the door to more opportunities of real service. and that may be the buy in it takes for someone to spend a period committed to repetition. maybe an approach that gives these people a "same but different" option. S&S is great, but on only if people do it. Is love to hear ideas on how to adapt SF principles and programs to help all threes other people.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well said. There is an article about the "three neural types/weight training" Google search those terms. that breaks people down into 3 "types."

type one; need variance
type two: in between
type three: strict routine

Of course, there is/was some crossover. Very interesting read. This thread is very welcome, and great info.
 
Nate said:
In defense of reaching different types of people, S&S is brilliantly productive and some people thrive on the routine nature as well. They would do well on endurance or weightlifting events, structured programs like 531 or any repetitive program. There are others whose brain chemistry is wired for variety and stagnate on routine. They can do well on S&S if they focus on changing daily rep schemes, technique points etc but its not what they flourish in. Crossfit, Westside, and many team sport athletes are frequently this way.

It's not that S&S wouldn't be physically great for them, but mentally its difficult. This is accepted practice in employment with temperament types by Keirsey and has been discussed since Plato. (Interestingly also the basis for the 4 characters in Wizard of Oz, houses in Harry Potter and girls in Sex in the City) So our greatest benefit will be helping people in a way they will flourish. Unfortunately I've struggled to get many people to reap the benefits of s&s because of the repetitive nature. There is a value to discipline and doing what is necessary, but that is frequently said by people who thrive on that setup. If we could bring the exercises and principles to people in other formats as well, it opens the door to more opportunities of real service. and that may be the buy in it takes for someone to spend a period committed to repetition. Maybe an approach that gives these people a "same but different" option. S&S is great, but on only if people do it. I'd love to hear ideas on how to adapt SF principles and programs to help all these other people.
Click to expand...
I've run into more than my fair share of people over they years with a high desire for 'entertainment' as Nate posts. Maybe it has to do with living in a city obsessed with 'newer, shinier, flashier, better, bigger, faster, etc.' Even though effective is entertaining for me, I get that others may feed on novelty. To quote Nate again, "S&S is great, but only if people do it." Being a good teacher, mentor and coach has as much to do with knowing WHAT they need to reach their goals as it does with HOW best to keep them coming back so I can help them get there. Sometimes, that means disguising the what they need 'present' into what they want 'package' (it is Christmas season after all).

If a person's goal is to reach S&S, life is simpler. Novelty skills can come after S&S training. Or...

A) Giving them a bit of novelty with TGU varieties:
  • Standard up-down.
  • Reverse down-up.
  • Up right down left. Next rep switch sides.
  • Reverse down right, up left. Next rep switch sides.
  • Heavier up only, etc. As a few ideas.
B) Or alternate Swings and Get Ups once a week.
  • Swing 10 R, Get Up R. Swing 10 L, Get Up L. Repeat 5 rounds.
  • Swing 10R (15s rest), 10L (15s rest), Get up R/L. Repeat 5 rounds. Etc.
If the person's goal isn't S&S performance specific (and you still feel a S&S approach is their best way to get there), you can add more 'novelty' or specialized variety skills into the mix. Reverse overhead lunges. Suitcase lunges. Half kneeling to stand lunges. Swings of every variety and combinations (Ladder 10/10. 9/9. 8/8...down to 1/ for 110 swings; or ladder the reps and kb weight). Instead of swings, train snatches; or alternate swings and snatches. So many exciting possibilities within just the 6 fundamental SFG1 skills. Then there's always just not calling it S&S...
 
A) I understand that "as written" is the best way to run simple and sinister.
B) I also know that I'm trying to get some people to buy in that need some variety or they won't do it.
If anyone had any suggestions to improve this "same but different" idea that might get people to stay with it long enough to progress into "as written program", please let me know.
ps I know most of these folks won't/can't do GHR, snatches, windmill.

Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • 20171231_165701.jpg
    20171231_165701.jpg
    160.1 KB · Views: 95
@Nate : Nice table!
As for substitutes I would add the following:
* Goblet SQ: Wall Drill, Rocking, Crawling, Hindu Squats
* TGU: Carries (same as your warmup suggestions)

* Warmup and stretching variety: Various Yoga and Animal Flow moves.
* Warmup and Get Up variety: Stand Up Drills from Dan John, Planks as a Program (also Dan John), Tall Kneeling Drills (Gray Cook)
 
Kettlebelephant said:
I could have named the thread "Escaping the monotony of S&S" or "What to do when S&S gets boring", but thought that title doesn't sound so negative.
Also I didn't know whether to post it into the Kettlebell or S&S FAQ section. @Steve Freides move it to where you think it's more apropriate.

When people talk about S&S they often say how boring or monotonous it is and how they have a hard time following it because of this. The topic came up again in 2 or 3 recent threads regarding S&S and that led me to open up this thread. I want to show you how versatile it can be and how you can add or combine stuff to make it more entertaining while still keeping the essence of the program IMO.
I know there are some hardliners that say a routine only has to produce results and you should do it even though you don't like it just because it works. I agree when it comes to athletes who use a program to improve their performance on the field, track, etc. but for everyone else I think a routine needs to be fun, too.
If your goal is to make a baby you have a much higher chance with things like in vitro fertilization, but doing it the old fashioned way is a lot more fun, won't you agree? :)

S&S is super flexible, because it doesn't have a fixed schedule. You can do it only 2 or 3 times per week or even up to 7 days. Of course progress will be different, depending on how much time you can afford to put into S&S, but over time you should be able to progress no matter how many days per week you choose.
The default advice is to do S&S as written until Simple. I second this, but on the other hand I recognize that this can be very hard to do and having a bit of variety can help you stay on the course.
For most of the variations you don't need to look further than the article section of the Strongfirst homepage. You can find a lot of gems there.
I didn't test all of them myself, but I feel every one of them ultimately helps to progress on your S&S path. For example you will never see me suggesting a variant that doesn't have a good amount of swings and TGUs in it. You might add other exercises, but those two should always be a part to help advance on S&S, even though they don't necessarily have to be done in the 10x10 & 5x1 L+R format.

Soju & Tuba (Upgrade Your Strength with the Soju and Tuba Press Program)
On some days just replace your TGUs with S&T presses (or whatever you like, the author says it can be done with basically any grind).
The best way to do this would be alternating the days like this:
Mon, Wed, Fri -> S&S swings + S&T presses instead of TGUs
Tue, Thu,(Sat, Sun) -> S&S as written
Note that I put Saturday and Sunday in brackets, because some people can't train on weekends. Overall it's up to you how many days of pure S&S you do, just at least do the minimum of 2.

Strength Aerobics (Strength Aerobics: A Powerful Alternative to HIIT)
In the article Pavel specifically suggests to alternate the Strength Aerobics (SA) routine with S&S from day to day.
It would look very similar to the S&T variant mentioned above, just use SA this time.

Light-Medium-Heavy TGU (How to Properly Program the Get-up for 3 Different Goals)
This version can be done in combination with some of the other variants. You can do it with every version where you do S&S 3x per week.
For those who only have time for 3 S&S sessions per week or choose a variant that has only 3 S&S sessions per week this is a good varation to progress your TGU.
Just use Mike Perrys guidelines for the L-M-H days outlined in his article.

EMOM Volume Swings (A Science-Based Plan to Prepare You for the SFG Level I and SFG Level II)
Use the "Conditioning Program" from that article.
Personally I think it's an awesome fit with Mike Perrys L-M-H TGU routine. Either go for alternating days:
Mon, Wed, Fri -> Swings
Tue, Thu, Sat -> TGUs
or do both on the same days. You can do them in one longer session or spread them out (e.g. morning: swings, evening: TGUs). If you go for the "both on the same day"-option combine however you like, for example heavy swings + heavy TGUs/medium swings + medium TGUs/light swings + lights TGUs or heavy swings + light TGUs/medium + medium/ light + heavy.

Multiple TGUs (How to Get Better at Everything by Training Multiple Get-Ups)
This is perfect for everyone who can train during the week, but not on weekends (e.g. myself).
For some variation to S&S replace your 5x1 L+R TGUs with the guideline from this article.

S&S & A+A
I know @Harald Motz did this or does it right now. Basically do S&S as written, but 1-2x per week replace your session with an A+A swing or snatch session. Harald also added LSD work in the form of running or rowing. I'm sure you can find more in his training log (Cause&Effect)

Daily Dose Deadlift Plan (Daily Dose Deadlift Plan)
Just add this to your regular S&S practice. For example do your S&S session, rest for 5-10min and then go for the DL singles. Or do the DLs in the morning/evening seperately from your S&S sessions.
It doesn't even have to be deadlifts. We have at least one recount of someone doing it with the full Zercher lift and someone doing it with Zercher squats. It probably also works for lifts like back or front squats.
@Steve Freides created a press version based on the DDD principles that can be found on the forum aswell.

2-3x per week strength routines
This is a combination of S&S with another strength program (usually barbell). There are a good amount of 2-3 day strength routines out there. Choose wisely, because not all are a good fit. For example Starting Strength will most likely be too demanding to combine it with anything.
My go-to recommendation would be Tactical Barbell, specifically the Fighter template. I recommended this a few times on the forum already. It would look like this:
Mon + Thu -> TB Fighter
Tue + Fri -> S&S
Wed, Sat, Sun -> optional S&S days

PttP + S&S 2-week blocks (from Easy Strength)
Simple, alternate 2 weeks of Power to the People with 2 weeks of S&S.
You can find my own review of this here:
Deadlift increase rate
Keep in mind that I probably overdid it a bit and my focus was on the DL. Your results may be different.

Fighter Pull-up Program (The Fighter Pull-up Program Revisited)
Like the Daily Dose Deadlift plan you can also chose to add the Fighter Pull-up Program. If the volume/day-to-day progression is too demanding for you reduce it to 3x per week. People still report constant improvement on only 3x per week.

Simply Sinister (The Simply Sinister Training Plan)
You can do this on its own for a couple of weeks, e.g. 3x per week or just add a single day of it into your usual S&S practice, which brings us to my last point...

...One variety day per week
This is one of my absolute favorites.
You do S&S 4-6x per week, but on one day (you might even make it 2 days) per week (e.g. every friday) you do something different just for fun and to break the monotony of S&S. You have a wide variety of WODs to choose from. My only two recommendations would be to make it something that involves Kettlebells and that it is somehow measurable (keyword: benchmark) so over time you can see whether or not your other training improves your benchmarks.
Good options for this day would be:
- Simply Sinister (The Simply Sinister Training Plan)
- The Deep 6 (A Group Lesson Plan for Conquering the Deep 6)
- Dan John WODs found in here: http://danjohn.net/wp-content/uploads/cpkb2.pdf
- KB HIC Sessions from Tactical Barbell II: Conditioning (e.g. "Apex")
- The Crossfit WODs "Helen" and "Eva"

Also remember that S&S has some variety in itself. Reread it and look into the chapters about non-stop swings, shadow swings and "easy" days. Some of those things should only be done after Simple, but still there's variety in the orginal S&S aswell.

I'm sure there are a lot more variants than the ones I posted, for example you could combine the variants. You could combine "Strength Aerobics", "L-M-H TGUs" & "EMOM Volume Swings" into a 6 days per week routine that very likely will boost your S&S progress. Or use "EMOM Volume Swings" together with "Multiple TGUs", you will swing and TGU 3x per week and only do TGUs on the other 2 days.
Adding a form of LSD locomotion (running, walking, rucking, cycling etc.) is also always a good option.
The bottom line is you can add a lot of diversity to S&S without changing the recovery demands too much.
Some of you may argue that it's not S&S anymore and yes that's true, but like I said at the beginning IMO all of those variations keep the essence of the original routine and help to progress on it.
Click to expand...
That is a tremendous summary of a lot of useful information. Thank you.
 
Far from boring, it feels too much like a movie or an adventure, but it's an exercise program so I don't know why I react to it like that! Maybe my mind links the movements and the athleticism with my experience in fighting sports and so it gives me a similar adrenaline charge. Also, it always feels like an accomplishment when I'm done it. It's great!

It is hardly at all the only exercise I do though! Everyone, get outside and hike, play a sport, and do bodyweight exercises or some barbell stuff too! S&S is the core but not everything!
 
This thread is excellent! Not just to tackle the possibly felt boredom of the routine, but also to get some insights of how to add some variability to the S&S in order to avoid plateaus.

I reached the simple standard last summer and after that I've done a round of ROP, a couple of Hec's programs, a short period of barbell work and one round of Dry Fighting Weight during the last year or so. In retrospect, I must say that Simple and Sinister was the only program that was easily combined with other activities. It was easy to avoid over training and you didn't have to ponder what to do if you missed training days because life got in the way. Also, I enjoyed the meditative quality of doing the S&S routine almost daily. However, I think that I have reaped the low hanging fruits and in order to get more results from S&S I must tweak it some way or another. I'd hate to lose the gains I made in press with ROP and double bell work. Now I'm running S&S again but with GTG presses and chinups. Periodization with different programs is of course a great option but I feel that you must commit quite heavily to some programs in order to make progress and to avoid over training, e.g. running ROP together with martial arts training was pretty taxing and I had to skip the swings and snatches in last 5 or 6 weeks in order to be able to recover. I think the point I'm trying to make is that I'm trying to find out if it's possible to have the cake and eat it too: continue with a steady easy strength approach combined with other sports and still keep making progress in strength. Or should one always periodize: run GPP with your sport for the most part of the year and then focus on strength and power when you are going easier with your sport.
 
Personally, I have always found ALL training to be boring. I wish I could be strong and healthy without having to do it but I can’t so I do. This is why SAS is so brilliant: minimum time, maximum effect. Perfect for someone like me.
 
S&S just makes all the other moves better, like dips, chinups, deadlifts, hiking, martial arts etc...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaz
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom