Why? Why not Anti-Glycolytic

banzaiengr

> 1k Posts
Spent the weekend watching the 3.5 yr. old Grandson. During one oh his "why Papa" moments it got me to thinking about some of my questions on the forum. It is a good way to learn as with the "HIRT for Hypertrophy" thread there were many back and forth comments. Some getting into mitochondria and energy systems which go way over my head.

Let me preface by saying I'm not a trainer. I try to keep up with the health and fitness world but there is a lot more that I don't know than what I do. As long as you don't comment with"that's not right you bloke" or some other derogatory remark it's fine. (actually it's my understanding that bloke isn't derogatory)

One question brought up in the "HIRT for Hypertrophy" thread was, "what is Strongfirsts definition for some of these terms" brought up in the discussion. I'm the curious type with too much time on my hands so I began my study at Google University. I did find some interesting results and some of these are not from Strongfirst.

high intensity; high intensity training means short-term training under maximum stress. A variety of systems, such as the circulatory system, heart, lungs, muscles, nerves, and your metabolism are challenged and stimulated in a most intense way.

interval training; a type of training that involves a series of low- to high-intensity workouts interspersed with rest or relief periods. The high-intensity periods are typically at or close to anaerobic exercise, while the recovery periods involve activity of lower intensity.

sprint interval; "Walk-back sprinting" is one example of interval training for runners, in which one sprints a short distance (anywhere from 100 to 800 metres), then walks back to the starting point (the recovery period), to repeat the sprint a certain number of times. To add challenge to the workout, each of these sprints may start at predetermined time intervals - e.g. 200 metre sprint, walk back, and sprint again, every 3 minutes. The time interval is intended to provide just enough recovery time. A runner will use this method of training mainly to add speed to their race and give them a finishing kick.

High-intensity interval training; attempts to decrease the overall volume of training by increasing the effort expended during the high-intensity intervals. The acronym DIRT is sometimes used to denote the variables : D = Distance of each speed interval, I = Interval of recovery between speed intervals, R = Repetitions of speed intervals, and T = Time of each.

High Intensity Repeat Training; Interval training is differentiated from repeats by when the recovery occurs. In interval training, the recovery is incomplete, so the next interval starts when the person is already fatigued. This incomplete recovery leads to a decline in performance after each interval. Repeats maintain the same high level of performance over time.

A+A; anti-glycolytic plus aerobic The anti-glycolytic training focuses on training bouts that push the ATP/CP system right to the edge of its capacity, but stopping the bout before glycolysis kicks in fully, basically avoiding the burn. You will then rest long enough to allow your ATP pockets to recover and then repeat the bout. This is done for a prescribed number of minutes, based on the goals of the training session or the protocol you’re following. The aerobic training is done at very comfortable pace which would allow you to breathe through your nose the whole time. It can also be done using the MAF heart rate method.


Let's think about what high intensity means, training under maximum stress. A variety of systems, such as the circulatory system, heart, lungs, muscles, nerves, and your metabolism are challenged and stimulated in a most intense way. What I find interesting here is it's not just the usual systems like heart or muscle that is stimulated but also the nerves and metabolism, "in a most intense way".

Interval Training involves both high intensity work interspaced with low intensity or recovery periods. High Intensity Interval Training attempt to decrease the overall volume by increasing the effort and lowering or nearly eliminating the recovery period.

Repeat training the recovery period is complete. A+A is a form of repeat training as you push to the edge of glycolysis but stop and ensure recovery so that as in repeat training there is little or no decline in performance. On other training days you work the aerobic system at a very low intensity.

One of the questions brought up on the "HIRT for Hypertrophy" thread was how long can someone participate in high intensity training before having to pay the piper as they say? I can say from experience that at times this may be for a good period of time if all other aspects to recovery are in place such as low stress, quality sleep, and quality nutrition. Remove one of those pillars to recovery and watch your training world come falling down. I worked a job without a regular schedule for several decades. At times those pillars were in place and my training went well. But then I would get on a routine of less sleep and much of it not quality as I tried to sleep during the day and all of a sudden what I had been doing in the gym became nearly impossible. It all depends and everyone is different. One trainee could possibly go for a long long time until something happens that increases his stress level and then he begins to feel the symptoms of "overtraining".

@kennycro@@aol.com stated that it would happen very quickly to a novice trainee on a poorly written program. Can we assume that a novice trainee wouldn't be on a high intensity program? Could he be on a poorly written program? Well yes but for the purposes of the discussion lets also assume that he is not. But a novice could be on a very well written program such as S&S and very quickly experience metabolic and other issues if he is not following the written program. I have also experienced this by trying run each S&S workout within the 5 and 10 minute time goals. This seemed to be a portion of the training that others missed. So the symptoms of overtraining can also happen when a well written program is not followed.

So, what have I learned here? I've learned that one way to ensure results and reduce the possibilities of overtaxing myself is to simply limit the amount of training I do which puts me into glycolysis. Then if my sleep is suffering or I'm not eating properly (another issue that reduces my progress) it may not have as dramatic an effect on training as otherwise. Sometimes it can be something completely out of our control such as the loss of a loved one. You believe you need to continue to train to help with this stress but if you are continually pushing the glycolytic envelop the training will hurt more than help.

Here's another good Strongfirst article by Mark Kingstone which describes why Anti-Glycolytic training is why sometimes less is more.

Understanding Why "Less Is More" with Anti-Glycolytic Training | StrongFirst
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
high intensity; high intensity training means short-term training under maximum stress.
That seems a bit silly to me. High intensity is training at a high level; maximum intensity is training at a maximum.

-S-
 

banzaiengr

> 1k Posts
That seems a bit silly to me. High intensity is training at a high level; maximum intensity is training at a maximum.
I don't think it's anymore silly than Tabata training. The work portions are 20 seconds at "maximum" effort. What's maximum effort on a stationary bike? Thanks for your input.
 

Steve Freides

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Elite Certified Instructor
Tabata is supposed to be a maximum effort as I understand it, but there are other types of high-intensity training. I think S&S style swings qualifies as high-intensity.

-S-
 

banzaiengr

> 1k Posts
Tabata is supposed to be a maximum effort as I understand it, but there are other types of high-intensity training. I think S&S style swings qualifies as high-intensity.
Well actually it would depend if it was just your regular S&S training or if you were testing yourself wouldn't it Steve? If it was your regular training and you were trying to limit glycolysis because it's actually pretty hard to eliminate, it would be either HIIT except that it's not two different movements but you are in fact trying over time to decrease the volume or in this case total time to complete the 100. Or it could be HIRT if you were not worried about the time involved and wanted to really limit glycolysis. If you are testing the swings to be done in 5 minutes then it would be high intensity.

Are you confusing high intensity with HIIT where high intensity is just maximum output and HIIT involves a portion of just a very short or no rest period?

Think of it like High Intensity Training with free weights. Each exercise is done for one set to failure. That set is high intensity but the whole workout is HIIT because you are moving from one exercise to the other with little or no rest.

I appreciate your critic though.
 
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Bro Mo

> 1k Posts
When I train anti-glycolytic, I feel that I'm focusing more time improving the physiology that is harder to develop. The muscles are not able to adapt and improve the amount of blood flow to the muscles during HIIT or the nerves connecting to as many muscle fibers at a time. I feel HIIT can only get a person to 60-80% of performance due to the limited physical adaptation that will take place.
 
Think of it like High Intensity Training with free weights. Each exercise is done for one set to failure. That set is high intensity but the whole workout is HIIT because you are moving from one exercise to the other with little or no rest.

I appreciate your critic though.
HIT is typically done with longer inter-set rest periods to accommodate the increased intensity per effort. HIIT has shorter rest periods to trigger mitochondrial and capillary changes - these are targeting two ends of Glycolysis, lactic and alactic (though both will elevate lactate levels).

Generic conditioning circuits and metcons are in a separate class.
 

banzaiengr

> 1k Posts
HIT is typically done with longer inter-set rest periods to accommodate the increased intensity per effort.
Thanks NCM, my example was from the HIT with Free Weights by Ellington Darden. There you move from exercises of the same body part without rest and from exercises of different exercises with only the rest it takes to set up the equipment.

As far as "general conditioning circuits" if you are speaking of circuit training then the exercises are done one after the other and rest is dependent on the training goal. Exercises aren't repeated in sets but in circuits. So it you did 3 sets of dips there would be other exercises that are done in the circuit before doing the next set of dips.
 
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Thanks NCM, my example was from the HIT with Free Weights by Ellington Darden. There you move from exercises of the same body part without rest and from exercises of different exercises with only the rest it takes to set up the equipment.

As far as "general conditioning circuits" if you are speaking of circuit training then the exercises are done one after the other and rest is dependent on the training goal. Exercises aren't repeated in sets but in circuits. So it you did 3 sets of dips there would be other exercises that are done in the circuit before doing the next set of dips.
Pretty sure Darden recommends a couple minutes between sets/exercises if going for size/strength, but I'm not sure on that.

Circuits by nature have to use a lower %RM just to get through them. I myself am not overly fond of the longer circuits for that very reason. They come in handy as filler workouts if you are limited in equipment or can't use heavier weight due to an injury etc, but if you already conditioned you won't be getting any stronger.

They're great for beginners though. Just not for every session.

If you use more weight three exercises are about it, and more rest between sets will be needed as well. Personally I do one upper, one lower and rest period depends on how hard I'm working. Rest between sets might be a couple minutes.
 

banzaiengr

> 1k Posts
No.


No.

-S-
Can we agree to disagree Steve? That is the problem that I think many had with the HIRT for Hypertrophy thread. No SF instructors cared to try and clarify these definitions as SF uses them.

In many other posts on the forum yourself and other SF instructors have indicated that you do not test every session. That sessions should be done with enough rest between sets of swings to ensure that they are crisp and done correctly. Then when testing the rest isn't though of that you simply go all out to get the 10x10 done in the five minutes.

So if you are resting between sets enough to ensure crisp swings during training and the sets are definitely not done to failure then I would say that each set is not high intensity and if done correctly the entire 10x10 are not high intensity.

It's difinately hard work but it just doesn't meet the test for high intensity.
 

Bret S.

> 1k Posts
Certified Instructor
I have also experienced this by trying run each S&S workout within the 5 and 10 minute time goals. This seemed to be a portion of the training that others missed. So the symptoms of overtraining can also happen when a well written program is not followed.
In many other posts on the forum yourself and other SF instructors have indicated that you do not test every session. That sessions should be done with enough rest between sets of swings to ensure that they are crisp and done correctly. Then when testing the rest isn't though of that you simply go all out to get the 10x10 done in the five minutes.
Hey Carl, just want to share with you what I did last year, it was S&S 4-5 times/wk at the test time standard every time for a full year. During this time I got consistently stronger and fitter, my RHR dropped to 48 bpm and I felt like superman most of the time. I worked up to using 36k regularly and was starting with the 40 when I decided to go for SFG1 testing, I believe it made the weekend much easier for me.
I used it as a warm-up for other training and got used to doing it. As far as negative effects I had only one, it was lactic acid build-up in the lower body big movers, as the week went on it got worse but was never enough to stop me.
On Mon and Tues it felt pretty easy to complete, by the end of the week the lactate would start to bug me. My energy level stayed high and I could work physically with ease, picking up a sledge hammer felt like a toy, swinging it was easy and I didn't get tired, walking up stairs was a breeze, my punching power was through the roof due to the explosive posterior chain power... the list goes on..

You know I did VWC to heal my shoulder enough to do Al's A+A program with a heavy enough weight. Now I'm strictly A+A and have come full circle. Having lived on both sides of the tracks I can say good things about both, now that I'm turning 60 I'm sticking to AGT going forward, GT is a younger man's game and I have nothing against it.. Just too much for me as an ongoing lifestyle, occasionally I'll hammer some GT now and then but more likely in the form of a snatch test or similar..
 

Sean M

> 1k Posts
Can we agree to disagree Steve? That is the problem that I think many had with the HIRT for Hypertrophy thread. No SF instructors cared to try and clarify these definitions as SF uses them.

In many other posts on the forum yourself and other SF instructors have indicated that you do not test every session. That sessions should be done with enough rest between sets of swings to ensure that they are crisp and done correctly. Then when testing the rest isn't though of that you simply go all out to get the 10x10 done in the five minutes.

So if you are resting between sets enough to ensure crisp swings during training and the sets are definitely not done to failure then I would say that each set is not high intensity and if done correctly the entire 10x10 are not high intensity.

It's difinately hard work but it just doesn't meet the test for high intensity.
While I agree "intensity" is not well-defined (if it even can be; maybe it has to be context-specific?), I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part.

If you were to run 100m intervals with pre-determined rest periods, and each 100m time got slower and slower, compared to someone who ran 100m and rested long enough to do the 100m at the same speed (repeat performances), is not the latter person performing at a higher intensity (measured here by speed, specifically average speed across the sum of work sets)?

Or take A+A repeats. I did 300 28kg snatches yesterday in Al Ciampa's Plan 111. 60 repeats of 5 approximately on-the-minute. I could not have done that many snatches at that weight at that same level of power output (my focus is to have the last few repeats of the session look and feel the same as the first few repeats of the session) with shorter rest than the ~0:45 I took each repeat. If my "undisciplined shadow" were to try to do them AMRAP/AFAP, he would have to drop the weight (less work), or would gas out and not be able to perform as many total reps (also less work). If intensity is defined as 'total work', who performed at a higher intensity?
 

banzaiengr

> 1k Posts
You are mixing the definition of intensity with the definition of high intensity training. Two different birds in the lifting world.
 
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the hansenator

More than 500 posts
So, just to see if I "get it" - Intensity is measured as it relates to maximum effort, such as a percentage of 1rm. Swings, as prescribed in S&S, are to be done with maximum explosiveness with a sufficiently challenging weight and that puts them at a high intensity?
 

Harald Motz

> 2k Posts
Certified Instructor
Or take A+A repeats. I did 300 28kg snatches yesterday in Al Ciampa's Plan 111. 60 repeats of 5 approximately on-the-minute. I could not have done that many snatches at that weight at that same level of power output (my focus is to have the last few repeats of the session look and feel the same as the first few repeats of the session) with shorter rest than the ~0:45 I took each repeat.
The difference is so real as it is so obvious and the method is so boringly reasonable.
If my "undisciplined shadow" were to try to do them AMRAP/AFAP, he would have to drop the weight (less work), or would gas out and not be able to perform as many total reps (also less work). If intensity is defined as 'total work', who performed at a higher intensity?
beyond all semantics and acronyms there is the high quality of work that counts and was done without breaking the head while doing it.

A+A is….High Volume Intensity Repeat Training... is Autoregulated Power Volume Training ...is Heavy High Volume Boredom Tolerance Training...is Patience Development Training...High Contrast Power Relaxation Training...One Lift a Day Training...Perfect Set Up Training...

semantics can be entertaining, can be confusing...better go out and lift something heavy explosively, semantics can be simple as that also.
 
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ali

> 1k Posts
@Sean M. Yes, there will always be ifs and buts within each and every 'thing'.
Your reference to 100m sprints is a classic example of where there is conflict in approach to sprinting, where there is conflict in speed training to where there is conflict in applying sports conditioning to general conditioning and specific conditioning.

Speed, in the context of sprinting, demands very long rests, as you say.
For training other than sprinting I'm more HIRT than
HIIT.....but sprinting is neither of them, for me that is. A 100m sprint is 10 minutes rest, minimum.

It is very glycolytic but it isn't HIIT! The antidote: long rests. One minute per 10 metres. Anything less isn't speed training anymore. So it depends if you sprint for speed, or something else!
 
Intensity relative to HIIT is a measure of % max hr.
Intensity relative to HIT (and keeping in mind there are a number of HIT strategies) is related to RPE, effort. That is why a set of 8 reps and one at 3 reps could both be considered HIT depending on how the set is performed. Add to this the definition of "failure" has a few variations as well.

Circuit training is considered high intensity if the RPE is high.

Mike Mentzer used single rep cluster sets w/ 10 second repeats as a High Intensity strategy. Intensity doesn't necessarily mean glycolytic, it is measure of perceived effort.

If the criteria is based on recovery pacing and not duration or RPE, then the definition of AGT becomes a little more clear, even if the terminology is probably not correct.

Glycolysis is a feature of virtually every effort over the anaerobic threshold even if executed over a short period of time. Lactate levels always elevate at the onset of forceful exertion, meaning pyruvate levels have increased as well. Pyruvate metabolism contributes to CrP recovery as well as handling some of the steady state aerobic workload.

A 100m sprint is definitely going to activate glycolytic pathway no matter how long you rest between efforts. The difference in ATP turnover between CrP and glycolysis is really not that noticeable - ATP levels don't drop from heavy exertion for a good 60 seconds, and the exact same fibers use both pathways. It is accumulation of Pi that causes muscle fatigue/drop in force production, not necessarily a shift in energy systems and certainly not due to a change in what fibers are activated.

Loading schemes and rest periods are something to be manipulated for specific adaptations. Glycolytic training does not have be submax metcon WOD, any more than CrP training has to be 1rm repeats. Short rest times are not a necessary feature of glycolytic training or even of HIT - that is a specific strategy primarily for targeting mass gains in conjunction with resistance training, and to induce metabolic adaptation with high HR aerobic based efforts.

I agree with Harald re semantics and lifting something heavy.
 

Bret S.

> 1k Posts
Certified Instructor
beyond all semantics and acronyms there is the high quality of work that counts and was done without breaking the head while doing it.
is Heavy High Volume Boredom Tolerance Training...is Patience Development Training...
I'm tired of breaking my head training, between ice hockey, MA and GT with weights I've hit my limit. now I just want to make gains in strength without having to kill myself doing it. A&A is helping me do just that.

As a side note, I've gained weight while becoming leaner doing the program, the LED work along with the explosive/relaxed snatch training is fantastic!
better go out and lift something heavy explosively,
The explosive serenity of A&A strength expressed in a few words.. nice Harald.. :)
 
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