Other/Mixed Wim Hof and running

[pet']

Hello,

I think I will ask for something quite stupid... However, as the Chinese saying goes "He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever" so...

Wim Hof ran long distances (no matter the cold / hot environment if we consider his marathon in Namibia or Arctic). Nowhere I can read or hear he followed a specific routine to do so. Then it seems he only performed his usual breathing routine. Otherwise, the effort was "mental". He ran the marathon in short in 5h30 in the Arctic for instance. Yes, some folks can be faster but he is not a specialist.

Then my question is: can the WH breathing be performed "instead" of regular LSD with more or less the same results ?

Here, I put aside the mental effort of running that long.

Once again, I apologize for this probably strange question !

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Steve Freides]

That marathon was apparently done barefoot on snow and ice, if I read correctly. Just running across the street barefoot on snow and ice is a remarkable achievement. The pace of a 5:30 marathon isn't something I personally could sustain on dry land - it's too slow, at roughly 12:30/mile, 7:50/km, and I would have to alternate running and walking, but neither have I ever timed myself on snow and ice since I avoid running on those.

All the examples of Wim Hof breathing I've seen involve some hyperventilation followed by breath holding. I have not seen what Mr. Hof might advise in terms of breathing for a marathon and can't imagine one could do anything like what I just described, assuming what I just described is correct.

My guess is that the answer to your question is, "No."

-S-

 

[offwidth]

No

 

[pet']

Hello,

Thanks for your answers.

What would be the "science" behind such achievement then ? (assuming there is no "lies" or hidden facts regarding his preparation) .

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Steve Freides]

Buddhist monks have been sleeping outside with just a thin blacket at 14,000 feet of elevation. They get up and shake off the snow and come back down.

The mind is a powerful thing, and most of us haven't gotten anywhere close to tapping in to our potential.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

I think you are right !

Nonetheless, what I do not get right is the science thing. I have to issue saying that I am mentally weak, or weaker than Buddhist monks or Wim.

Indeed, for I perform AA training / jumping rope (on alternate day) and WH (daily), I have been noticing a far better endurance and overall stamina. But I am not able to say which one is the main factor, or even if one plays a more important role.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Pantrolyx]

Good question!
I have read a couple of books on the WHM and attended three workshops on the subject, but I do not know the answer to it. However, the routine with 30-40 full breaths in and light/incomplete exhalation, followed by breath holds, is something I understand that Wim does before the running. He does not breath like that when he runs. In fact, he specified that not being able to take deep breaths is a challenging aspect of running marathons in cold surroundings, if memory serves me right.

Personally, I try to do a session of WHM breathing each morning. If I oversleep, I try do do it before training, and I really do feel that it makes running in the cold (mind you, I live in Norway) less unpleasant. During running, however, as well as during the day, I tend to lend ideas and concepts from the "oxygen advantage", based on Buteyko principles. In essence, it is based on breathing light, exclusively with the nose. Breath holding while pinching the nose during running is a training technique in the oxygen advantage, and a useful one, but I don't think it is advisable to do when you are actually trying to run as fast as possible.

 

[Steve Freides]

I have to issue saying that I am mentally weak, or weaker than Buddhist monks or Wim.

I have no issue saying such a thing about myself.

It is not a matter of strength. I teach Buteyko breathing and I certainly wouldn't call how we teach about strength or being strong - mine is very soft-style of practice. But that doesn't change the fact that one must be taught, practice, and improve with the passage of months, years, and decades, like any real art.

-S-

 

[Pantrolyx]

I have no issue saying such a thing about myself.

It is not a matter of strength. I teach Buteyko breathing and I certainly wouldn't call how we teach about strength or being strong - mine is very soft-style of practice. But that doesn't change the fact that one must be taught, practice, and improve with the passage of months, years, and decades, like any real art.

-S-

Steve: What is your take on "altitude simulatiom", or simply running while hold the breath? Is it something that you teach or do yourself?

 

[Steve Freides]

Buteyko practiced has been likened by more than one person to altitude training, and although I have never done the latter, I think there's a lot of merit to the comparison since, in both cases, one is adapting to a lower about of oxygen. But the effects of altitude training are usually quite short-lived while the breathing re-education that occurs with Buteyko is for a lifetime.

There are Buteyko practices that involve both walking and running. I practice both myself, and I teach it to interested students.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

I usually do the WH breathing after the regular training as a part of my cool down. However, I also notice that doing it before the training makes the training per se quite easier.

Even if the mental plays a significant role, the cold shower is way easier and pleasant after the breathing. This is harder doing it without the breathing.

On the WHM Facebook page, plenty of folks report a significant increase in their endurance training, but above all regarding the recovery.

Ben Greenfield, who is a triathlete / iron man / long distance runner argues that altitude mask does a great job to increase heart and lung function. I would add that he also optimizes his diet and many things in his life because he is some kind of "biohacker".

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[kiwipete]

Hello,

I think I will ask for something quite stupid... However, as the Chinese saying goes "He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever" so...

Wim Hof ran long distances (no matter the cold / hot environment if we consider his marathon in Namibia or Arctic). Nowhere I can read or hear he followed a specific routine to do so. Then it seems he only performed his usual breathing routine. Otherwise, the effort was "mental". He ran the marathon in short in 5h30 in the Arctic for instance. Yes, some folks can be faster but he is not a specialist.

Then my question is: can the WH breathing be performed "instead" of regular LSD with more or less the same results ?

Here, I put aside the mental effort of running that long.

Once again, I apologize for this probably strange question !

Kind regards,

Pet'

Good question for an exercise physiology scientist! (not me )

My guess in NO, and I'll have a go at some reasons...

# Insufficient duration of 'exercise' with WHM breathing, unless it is at least 20-30min long

# Adaptions to demand are specific (perhaps you get some 'side' benefits to your LSD training - but perhaps better to just do more of that??)

# Intensity of WHM breathing appears to be quite high and develop the body's systems in a suboptimal way if you want LSD benefits...

WH ran a marathon at walk/ jog pace - I think almost any basic level fitness person could do the same. I don't think that proves WHM optimising LSD effects - I think it just allows him to 'get away with it' but probably at a cost to his body's systems (nervous, hormonal etc)

Also consider 'survivorship bias' when attributing cause and effect to one particular method (and a small sample size and possible just anecdotal evidence?)

 

[pet']

Hello,

# Insufficient duration of 'exercise' with WHM breathing, unless it is at least 20-30min long

# Intensity of WHM breathing appears to be quite high and develop the body's systems in a suboptimal way if you want LSD benefits...

Currently, I do 3 rounds of 30-40 breathes, then a breath hold with empty lung. Then I do a fourth round, and a set of push ups with empty lungs. Doing that way, this practice lasts about 15-20 minutes. As you said, per se, the practice is intense. However, it remains perfectly sustainable. I have been doing it on a daily basis for a long time now and there is no recovery issue. To a certain extent, I even notice that I recover better from my other activities since I practice the WHM.

# Adaptions to demand are specific (perhaps you get some 'side' benefits to your LSD training - but perhaps better to just do more of that??)

This is exactly what I think. I am totally unable to say if my conditioning comes from either WHB (daily basis) or easy cardio / AA (on alternate days).

WH ran a marathon at walk/ jog pace - I think almost any basic level fitness person could do the same

The pace would be roughly 7,6km/h. So yes, this is not a fairly high pace. However, cold makes you use way more O2. I know it from diving and relatively cold water. When I dive into 12° water, I can last about 35-40 minutes. In 24° water, about 1h30. So, to a certain extent, I think WHB teaches the body how to use O2 more efficiently (or get rid of CO2) as it permits a better management of lactic acid. So as you say, maybe it can help but hard to say if it do everything (probably not though !)

WHB uses the Bohr effect. It increases the CO2 partial pressure. Basically, it reduces the O2 affinity of hemoglobin, so it "force" the O2 blood to get in the muscle cells. In this way, I guess it contributes to better endurance.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[offwidth]

Not to detract from the many benefits of various breath training techniques but...

There is no low altitude training that effectively simulates high altitude training despite the claims otherwise. If there were then serious alpinists would be lined up to do it and they are not.

Likewise with endurance training... no shortcuts... logging kilometers is what does the trick. The serious people are logging over 1,000 hrs a year..

 

[pet']

Hello,

If we consider the high altitude simulation, I am not so sure. Increasing red blood cells in low altidue is possible. Some sportmen use low O2 concentration room to practice (whatever it is: running, cycling, etc...). I remember a documentary about an MMA fighter doing so. Of course, this kind of training is not necessarily possible all due to facility constraints
A three-week traditional altitude training increases hemoglobin mass and red cell volume in elite biathlon athletes. - PubMed - NCBI
Live high-train low for 24 days increases hemoglobin mass and red cell volume in elite endurance athletes. - PubMed - NCBI
Physiological implications of altitude training for endurance performance at sea level: a review. - PubMed - NCBI




Bohr effect and temperature sensitivity of hemoglobins from highland and lowland deer mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[offwidth]

That's all well and good, but I am talking about training at low altitude in order to be able to perform at high altitude. 6,000m and higher.
(I realize that this is not mainstream activity...)

Some hyperbaric rooms may allow for this, but that is beyond the reach of most. And again, I know of no one doing this.

 

[North Coast Miller]

General question re breath techniques in general and the Bohr effect.

How is it possible to make long term / semi-permanent changes to blood O2/CO2 balance when only about 20% of available oxygen is extracted from any given breath at rest?

And even with breath holding methods, won't the blood O2 balance rapidly return to previous baseline levels once normal breathing is resumed?

 

[pet']

Hello,

How is it possible to make long term / semi-permanent changes to blood O2/CO2 balance when only about 20% of available oxygen is extracted from any given breath at rest?

I do not think the changes can be permanent. Indeed, when you go to the mountains, and then get back to sea level, you have this feeling of breathing easily during a few days. Nonetheless, you lose this effect after a while. I guess the longer you practice, the longer the effects remains, even if you do not train it for a while.

And even with breath holding methods, won't the blood O2 balance rapidly return to previous baseline levels once normal breathing is resumed?

Otherwise, considering the blood 02 balanace produced by WHB, it lasts for a few hours. I noticed that 2 sessions a day may be the right spot to get more or less an effect during all the day. I got this from a WH instructor. For instance, when I do the breathing, I can do a cold shower / bath right after without trouble. If I wait "too long" (about 4-6h), it becomes harder and require more focus.

What you underline is interesting, regarding the way of breathing:
Control of breathing and ventilatory acclimatization to hypoxia in deer mice native to high altitudes. - PubMed - NCBI
It seems a "deeper" breathing pattern helps. Nonetheless, my guess is that a real deep breathing pattern is only possible when you consciously think about it (at least for regular folks). Maybe it becomes naturally deeper after a while, but nothing compared to the breathing during a session.

Here is an interesting link regarding heat and cold adaptation to improve response to hypoxia:
Cross-Adaptation: Heat and Cold Adaptation to Improve Physiological and Cellular Responses to Hypoxia. - PubMed - NCBI

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Al Ciampa]

In no particular order:

• Proper breath training simulates altitude exposure and so hastens the acclimation period when you actually get up there (see more below, Brian)
• Proper breath training can improve cardiovascular system, buffering, etc., but there is no replacing using the leg muscles. Wim is likely a bit of a mutant freak, though I do not discount his method for that probable fact.
• The amount of gas extracted from the volume of air in the lung is irrelevant. Unless a specific condition is present, the O2 bottleneck is the blood, not gas exchange. This is where action can be made.
• CO2 of the blood is gradually increased through consistent breath retraining. The brain then tries to defend this new homeostatic level. The increase in CO2 in the blood is what allows more O2 to leave hemoglobin to tissues at a greater rate (Bohr effect).
• I’ve personally sat for many minutes during my practice with a blood O2 saturation below 88% following a pause. Multiply by pauses per session, per day, and I may have exposed myself to O2 sat between 52% (lowest I’ve ever seen) and 88% for nearly half an hour per day. This doesn’t include total practice time. I’m not alone in doing this.
• Note that pulse-oximeters can lose accuracy below 70%
• The preface to my personal experience is that I completely immerse myself into whatever interests I have. The average individual living a “normal life” simply can not or does not have the time available to devote to breath retraining to the same degree. There’s a lot of wisdom in this experience. I’ve manipulated my life in such a way that allows me to pour myself into my interests. If you can make a fraction of this time work, the return far outweighs the investment.

 

[kiwipete]

Hello,


The pace would be roughly 7,6km/h. So yes, this is not a fairly high pace. However, cold makes you use way more O2. I know it from diving and relatively cold water. When I dive into 12° water, I can last about 35-40 minutes. In 24° water, about 1h30. So, to a certain extent, I think WHB teaches the body how to use O2 more efficiently (or get rid of CO2) as it permits a better management of lactic acid. So as you say, maybe it can help but hard to say if it do everything (probably not though !)


Pet'

I read the book, " What doesn't kill you" by Scott Carney and hearing the exercise physiologist's ideas about how Scott increased his cardiovascular system by using hit/cold stimuli cannot be ignored!

Perhaps from a training perspective WHM is like an entrée or dessert...

From a life perspective WHM/ breathing practice is like a main meal