Other/Mixed Wim Hof and running

[pet']

Hello,

I read this this book as well. It is a very good one by the way, full of tips regarding the WHM.

I also read and listenned other Carney's contents. He still does cold exposure and performs the breathing. The only physical activity he does is easy running, 3x a week. This simple training permits him to do Spartan races without trouble. I guess this is related

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Oscar]

. I teach Buteyko breathing and I certainly wouldn't call how we teach about strength or being strong - mine is very soft-style of practice.

The Siberian method of self-suffocation you thought me? I wouldn't call that soft

 

[North Coast Miller]

Again,I always find this topic fascinating. I've spent plenty of time doing nasal, abdominal, extended duration exhale breath meditation. I don't know if I've permanently altered my breathing patterns or not, as this would have been a byproduct of my actual practice, nothing I was actively attempting.

I still wonder about the regulatory mechanics that would lead to permanent autonomic recalibration, blood CO2 levels fluctuate with every shift in activity levels, let alone breathing patterns. I have a lot more reading to do.

 

[Steve Freides]

I still wonder about the regulatory mechanics that would lead to permanent autonomic recalibration, blood CO2 levels fluctuate with every shift in activity levels, let alone breathing patterns. I have a lot more reading to do

As @Al Ciampa has said, you can reprogram yourself. It is simple but it's not easy, and in my opinion, what I teach is in many ways quite the opposite of what we do here as regards strength training, but that is the point, and indeed it's part of the beauty, seeing what the opposites sides have in common with each other.

I couple of months ago, I had a colonoscopy - it's one of those things they want you to do once you reach a certain age. I had my first one at 55, and this was my second one, done about 9 years later. I spent some time hooked up to the usual hospital gizmos and gadgets, chatting with the nurse while we waited for the doctor. It was noteworthy to me to see the alarm regularly going off, informing the nurse that I had stopped breathing. The situation was far from ideal for being relaxed and breathing slowly or relaxedly - I felt lousy from preparing for the procedure, I hadn't slept well as a result, I had walked a mile to get to the hospital and rather briskly since it turned out to be colder than I thought I was uncomfortably cold for most of the walk. Anyway, I was certainly _not_ paying attention to my breathing, but my reprogramming was in full evidence. I explained this to the nurse and everyone was OK - she just turned down the sound on the apnea alarm. And through all this, my blood O2 levels were normal, 98% most of the time.

The data of one person for you there.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

What you are saying about the "reprogrammation" is very interesting and like you, I think this is possible.

Indeed, before I start practicing WH breathing, I only did a pure "sport" routine. Since I do WBM on a daily basis (in addition of the regular routine), I am way more relaxed and recover faster. So, if we consider the relaxation part, I guess WH plays a role in terms of heart tension. Indeed, stress tends to make the heart tension higher. However, it is now reduced, about 10,5

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

I have no doubt one can reprogram the mechanics of breath or many other attributes. What i have questions about are whether one can reprogram blood O2/CO2 levels within or outside a physiologic range beyond the period of specific physical actvity or altered breathing states.

I can recount a number of situations where I was able to control my physical reactions based on breath control.

Is possible I've achieved this myself, but I've yet to hear a good explanation for how this would happen - the Bohr effect is presumably outside our ability to actively tinker with, as is the various exchange rates of metabolic process that seem to function based on high/low concentrations of metabolites. We can effect them actively but not passively, or that is my current understanding anyway.
Time to hit the books...

 

[Steve Freides]

@North Coast Miller, taking in less air at rest is the programming. The benefits of then Bohr effect take care of themselves.

-S-

 

[ali]

From a running perspective - a nice, easy relaxed running style will make you a more efficient runner. As well as breathing considerations, mechanics matter too. Both bounce off each other.
If by doing both you feel the urge to get your kit off and run up Mont Blanc in the snow bollock naked, fair enough.
Whilst being resistant to cold illustrates our adaptive potential for such extremes it doesn't necessarily equate to top level running performance. Although I can see the marketing potential for a naked tough mudder in the arctic sometime soon.....a tough icer, or something...

 

[offwidth]

Time to hit the books...

Time to hit the trails...

 

[pet']

Hello,

During aerobic training -LSD- mitochondrias create 27 ATP, whereas only 4 ATP are created during anaerobic training (sprint and interval training). So in this regard, LSD training is more likely to be the best training to optimize energy creation and management.

However, I cannot find data about WHB and ATP

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hello,

During aerobic training -LSD- mitochondrias create 27 ATP, whereas only 4 ATP are created during anaerobic training (sprint and interval training). So in this regard, LSD training is more likely to be the best training to optimize energy creation and management.

However, I cannot find data about WHB and ATP

Kind regards,

Pet'

Total yield is closer to 36 ATP, of which the lion's share runs through Krebs cycle, both for energy, recovery, and steady state. Throughput of aerobic side is the limiting factor for the anaerobic side.

Specifically looking for info re Bohr effect via self-regulation. Annecdotes are good, as are training adaptations, but not the same as understanding the science.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Total yield is closer to 36 ATP, of which the lion's share runs through Krebs cycle, both for energy, recovery, and steady state. Throughput of aerobic side is the limiting factor for the anaerobic side.

Specifically looking for info re Bohr effect via self-regulation. Annecdotes are good, as are training adaptations, but not the same as understanding the science.

The Bohr effect is a physical phenomenon that has absolutely nothing to do with self-regulation.

Gravity and magnets function the same regardless of anyone’s manipulation.

 

[Tobias Wissmueller]

• The preface to my personal experience is that I completely immerse myself into whatever interests I have. The average individual living a “normal life” simply can not or does not have the time available to devote to breath retraining to the same degree. There’s a lot of wisdom in this experience. I’ve manipulated my life in such a way that allows me to pour myself into my interests. If you can make a fraction of this time work, the return far outweighs the investment.

@Al Ciampa
Can you quantify how much time you devote to breathing practice on a daily / weekly basis?

 

[Al Ciampa]

@Al Ciampa
Can you quantify how much time you devote to breathing practice on a daily / weekly basis?

Hello Tobias; it’s been a long time.

At my peak, it was several hours per day of formal practicing plus returning attention to my ventilation throughout the day and attempting to reduce it.

These days, I formally practice 30-60min/day (many days not at all) and still constantly monitor ventilation for reduction.

I should note that I count physical training as time spent reducing my breath.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Tobias Wissmueller, not that you asked, but for anyone reading along who may not know, standard practice in our Buteyko school for maintenance is twice a day for about 15 minutes each time. People are different - I practice irregularly now but my breathing seems quite reprogrammed, and several days of no breathing practice doesn't adversely effect the next session I do.

-S-

 

[Tobias Wissmueller]

Hello Tobias; it’s been a long time.

At my peak, it was several hours per day of formal practicing plus returning attention to my ventilation throughout the day and attempting to reduce it.

These days, I formally practice 30-60min/day (many days not at all) and still constantly monitor ventilation for reduction.

I should note that I count physical training as time spent reducing my breath.

Thank you, @Al Ciampa! Yes, it's been a while.

Several hours per day is indeed quite an amount of time spent for practicing. 30 to 60 minutes + physical training is quite doable in my opinion.

If I pull myself together, I sometimes manage 3 to 4 Buteyko sessions, each 15 minutes, plus almost 1.5 hours on the bike for my commute where I try to stay in "air-hunger mode" for a while, plus my S&S session where I hold my breath for a short period during rest periods as taught by @Pavel Macek during the kettlebell course. But this is an ideal day which happens only sometimes. Am aiming for more consistency.

By the way, @Al Ciampa, how is Part II "Lifestyle and Nutrition" of "Physical Training Culture" coming along. I do have a strong need for that. (Sorry for hijacking this thread).

@Tobias Wissmueller, not that you asked, but for anyone reading along who may not know, standard practice in our Buteyko school for maintenance is twice a day for about 15 minutes each time. People are different - I practice irregularly now but my breathing seems quite reprogrammed, and several days of no breathing practice doesn't adversely effect the next session I do.

This confirms by observation, @Steve Freides. After a long break, I have realised, that my nose is getting more congested again during nights. Then I restarted again, but not consistently, but still I feel an improvement. I am aiming for three sessions (Level 15 in the app) per day.