Kettlebell ? With Snatch

[Waffles03]

Hi, research has shown that when it comes to maximizing your power output with kettlebell swing, it’s 30%. Now my question is, what’s the best % for optimizing your power production with the kettlebell snatch? Thank you.

Also, you guys are awesome. I’m learning a lot on this forum from reading you guys (and gals) posts.

 

[Kozushi]

25% I think, right?

 

[B.Hetzler]

It’s not quite that high.

The thing to remember with the snatch is that since it is an asymmetrical load things change. ALOT.

What’s misunderstood about power in swings and snatches is that if you are swinging and snatching you are working on power. The question is what is the ideal load. Ideal means the load that will get the most power output AND allow you to get adequate volume at speed. Once the speed of the bell drops, game over. Meaning, if the bell size increases by 10% of my bw, but the power output only jumps by 5% you are working harder not smarter.

I’m about to share some data on this in one of my upcoming projects. It’s not a SF project, so I won’t promote it here. you all will have to track it down on your own, sorry.

 

[Waffles03]

It’s not quite that high.

The thing to remember with the snatch is that since it is an asymmetrical load things change. ALOT.

What’s misunderstood about power in swings and snatches is that if you are swinging and snatching you are working on power. The question is what is the ideal load. Ideal means the load that will get the most power output AND allow you to get adequate volume at speed. Once the speed of the bell drops, game over. Meaning, if the bell size increases by 10% of my bw, but the power output only jumps by 5% you are working harder not smarter.

I’m about to share some data on this in one of my upcoming projects. It’s not a SF project, so I won’t promote it here. you all will have to track it down on your own, sorry.

Thank you Brandon for the info. Also I look forward in seeing some of your data, lol that if I can find them.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...research has shown that when it comes to maximizing your power output with kettlebell swing, it’s 30%.

30% Research Reference

The majority of research has demonstrated that Power is produced and trained with percentages higher that 30%.

Traditional Exercise Power Output Measurement

Traditional exercise like Squats, Bench Press, Deadlifts, etc produce the greatest Power Output with load of 48 to 63% of a 1 Repetition Max, according to research from the National Strength and Conditioning Association.

A much greater training percentage of a 1 Repetition Max is utilized with Explosive Movement.

Olympic Lift Movements

Research shows the greatest amount of Power Output with Olympic Lift Movement occurs with load of 70 to 80%.

Kettlebell Swing fall more into the Explosive Movement Olympic Lift Movement category.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

Dr Bret Contreras' research demonstrated that Heavy Kettlebell Swing produce greater Power Output.

1) Squat Style Swing
a) 70 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N) 2,170-2,349 Peak Horizontal Force (N)166-182
b)140 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N)2,431-2,444 Peak Horizontal Force (N) 278-353

2) Hip Hings Swing
a) 70 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N)1,935-2,140 Peak Horizontal Force (N) 340-402
b)140 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N)2,325-2,550 Peak Horizontal Force (N) 499-520

This illustrates that the greatest amount of Power Output occurred with the heavier 140 lb Kettlebell, which obviously does not fall into the 30% category.

Contreras did not qualify the percentage of the poundage used in his research. However, it is obvious that a 140 lb Kettlebell Swing definitive more than 30%.

If a 140 lb Kettlebell Swing were 30%, that would mean it would have been based off a 466 lb Kettlebell Swing (140 lbs divided by 30%).

Special Strength

Yuri Verkhoshansky Special Strength book is brilliant.

Verkhoshansky's break down the various Training Percentages that need to be elicited for the development of Speed, Power and Strength.

Speed Training is best developed with lighter load around 10 to 40%, with 30% being the sweet spot.

Take Home Message

1) Power: Explosive Movement such as Kettlebell Swings and Olympic Movements are optimally developed and elicited with load in the 70 to 80%.

2) Speed: Speed Movements are optimally developed with light load of 10 to 40%, with 30% being the sweet spot for most.

3) Strength Training Percentages:

a) Speed, Power and Limit Strength Training Percentage of 1 Repetition Max fall different categories. To elicit the right response, the right Training Percentage needs to be utilized.

b) Sets, Reps and Rest Periods: Virtually the same Sets, Repetitions and Rest Periods between apply to Speed, Power and Limit Strength Training.

What differentiates them from each other is the Training Percentage.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Oscar]

Hi, research has shown that when it comes to maximizing your power output with kettlebell swing, it’s 30%. Now my question is, what’s the best % for optimizing your power production with the kettlebell snatch? Thank you.

I understand that when you say 30%, you refer to 30% of bodyweight. @kennycro@@aol.com is apparently referrring to a % related to 1RM. What I understood from Kenny´s post, ideal weight for power production for swings (or snatches) would be around 70% of 1 RM.

So if we do the math: If your 1RM snatch is the 32 kg KB, then 70% is 22.4 kg. Also, if your bodyweight is about 80 kg, then 30% is 24 kg. So you can both agree that a good KB for power production is the 24 kg. Who would have guessed.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Here is a comparison of swings and snatches:
Swing Versus Snatch | StrongFirst

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

@kennycro@@aol.com - Noted that heavier swings, either squatty or all hingy, generates more power.

Interesting, if I'm reading it correctly, looks like squatty swings generate considerably more horizontal power and less vertical power per your data above which fits how it feels to my body. I particularly feel the difference there in how taxing equal weight is on my grip at different points along the arc.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I understand that when you say 30%, you refer to 30% of bodyweight

30% of Body Weight

I suspect that the 30% was based on Body Weight; which isn't a good idea. More on that in a minute.

@kennycro@@aol.com[/USER] is apparently referrring to a % related to 1RM

Percentage of 1 Repetition Max

This method allows you pin point with greater accuracy the appropriate load/percentage to use.

So if we do the math: If your 1RM snatch is the 32 kg KB, then 70% is 22.4 kg. Also, if your bodyweight is about 80 kg, then 30% is 24 kg. So you can both agree that a good KB for power production is the 24 kg. Who would have guessed.

Not So

Hypothetically, your example makes sense.

In practically, it doesn't work.

Based on your assumption, all individual who weight 80 kg would have the same Strength and Power Production Levels. Thus, a novice weaker athlete would use the same size Kettlebell and elicit the same Power Output as an elite athlete.

The Strength/Power Level of a novice and elite athlete are completely different.

With that in mind, let employ a more practical example

Bret Contreras Example

Contreras' body weight is around 220 lbs/100 kg.

Contreras provide a video demonstration in the article.

Based on using 30% of Body Weight, Contreras should have used a 66 lb/roughly 32 kg Kettlebell. (30% X 220 lbs/100 kg Body Weight)

However, Contreras' Kettlebell Swing in the video demonstrates him performing it with 203 lbs/92 kg.

Kettlebell Swing Discrepency

Contreras Kettlebell Swing is around 137 lbs/60 kg greater that the 30% of Body Weight Formula which would advocate a 66 lb/roughly 32 kg Kettlebell.

My "Power" Kettlebell Swings

At a body weight of around 190 lbs/86.2 kg, I have performed "Power Kettlebell Swings" with a 175 lbs/79.kg Hungarian Core Blaster that replicates, is essentially a Kettlebell Swing.

Based on the Percentage of Body Weight Formula, I should have used around 57 lbs/a 26 kg Kettlebell.

Summary

1) Individuals with the same body weight don't necessarily have the same Strength or amount of Power. That's why the Percentage of Body Weight is a poor method.

2) Basing the training percentage off 1 Repetition Max is more realistic, accurate.

3) Based on research on Power Training Percentages with Traditional Exercises from the National Strenght and Conditioning Association, Olympic Lift Movement Power Training Percentages and Contreras' research on Power Outputs with Kettlebell loads...

a) Heavier Kettlebell loads needs to be employed for optimal Power Output and development.

b) 30% of Body Weight developes Speed but does not optimize Power.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

looks like squatty swings generate considerably more horizontal power and less vertical power per your data above which fits how it feels to my body.

"Squatty Swings"

This is a great movement. It overloads the quads and glutes and minimally involves the hamstrings.

You sit back and Squat into the movement. The quad initiate the drive out of the hole. Quad drive diminished as you near the top. This is where the glutes kick in and finish the movement.

The Kettlebell "Squatty Swing" is a great method for developing Squat Technique and increasing Power Out of the hole. The rebound out of the hole elicits the Stretch Reflex.

The "Squatty Swing" is not one that many individual use; since the Kettlebell Swing is defined as more of a...

Hip Hinge Swing

This movement pattern place the workload on the hamstrings and glutes, minimizing quad involvement.

The Hip Hinge to some extent mimics the second pull in an Olympic Pull, it's a great Auxiliary Conventional Deadlift Exercise.

Dumbbell Hip Hinge Swing

Performing Hip Hing Swings by holding dumbbells on the outside of your legs engages the same muscles as the Kettlebell Swing between the legs.

Dumbbell Hip Hinge Swings are more specific to the Conventional Auxiliary Deadlift Exercise; working the muscle a little differently than the Traditional Kettlebell Swing between the legs.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Waffles03]

1) Squat Style Swing
a) 70 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N) 2,170-2,349 Peak Horizontal Force (N)166-182
b)140 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N)2,431-2,444 Peak Horizontal Force (N) 278-353

2) Hip Hings Swing
a) 70 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N)1,935-2,140 Peak Horizontal Force (N) 340-402
b)140 lb Swing Peak Vertical Force (N)2,325-2,550 Peak Horizontal Force (N) 499-520

This was really interesting. I always assumed that the hip hing style swing would produce more horizontal force compared to the squat style swing.

 

[Steve Freides]

@kennycro@@aol.com, if you're proposing calculating swing weights on 1RM, how do you test for that? Swing <_insert_variable_here> vary greatly - speed, height, you name it. The tests you're saying were "isn't a good idea" were performed with a force plate. The people doing the testing drew the conclusion. It seems like a fine idea to me.

-S-

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

The "Squatty Swing" is not one that many individual use; since the Kettlebell Swing is defined as more of a...

GS sport swing. Squatty to da max.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

@kennycro@@aol.com, if you're proposing calculating swing weights on 1RM, how do you test for that? Swing <_insert_variable_here> vary greatly - speed, height, you name it.

Great Question

A Human Performance Lab at a University with the right equipment could probably calculate it. However, that not practical.

A good coach who's been around can view the speed in which an individual is moving the Kettlebell load and provide feed back on Power Output.

Competition Deadlift Eample

Based on your/Steve's competition experience, you can determine approximately how much more an individual can pull on their Deadlift by how fast and easy or how slow and hard the attempt is for them.

Based on your/Steve's competition experience, how hard or easy your Second Deadlift Attempt is, you know approximately how much more you have left for your third.

he tests you're saying were "isn't a good idea" were performed with a force plate. The people doing the testing drew the conclusion. It seems like a fine idea to me.

Research Article

I'd like to read that research article. Where can I find it?

Without seeing it, my question are...

1) "Did all the lifters possess the same Strength and Power Level"?

2) Since Power = Strength X Speed, how is it that both Weaker Novice and Stronger Elite Athlete produce the same amount of Power Output with a 30% of Body Weight Kettlebell Swing?

The Foundation of Power

Strength is the foundation on which Power is build. Stronger athletes generally produce more Power than Weaker Athletes. There is a minor exception to this rule, another topic for another day.

With that in mind, let look at how Strength impacts Power in this example...

Power Output of Novice Vs Elite Athlete

Lets say a Novice Lifter has a Strength Rating of 2 and an Elite Athlete has a Strength Rating of 3.

Let say the Novice and Elite Athlete each have a Speed Rating of 2.

Now let do the math...

Novice Lifter: Strength (2 Rating) X Speed (2 Rating) = Power Output of 4.

Elite Lifter: Strength (3 Rating) X Speed (2 Rating) = Power Out of 6.

The Stronger Elite Lifter is going to produce more Power than the Weaker Novice Lifter; that since the load is relative light for the Stronger Elite Lifter and heavier for the Weaker Novice Lifter.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[MikeTheBear]

GS sport swing. Squatty to da max.

I don't know that I would describe the GS swing as "squatty." I have noticed that my quads do come into play a bit more in the GS swing and especially the snatch. Part of that is to spread the work over all of the muscles of the lower body. Part of that is to give a KB a more upward as opposed to outward trajectory. This is similar to the double knee bend in the Olympic pull which is what gives the bar the correct upward path. So if an Olympic pull is "squatty" then I suppose GS swings and snatches are also squatty. I would say that is an oversimplification because the posterior chain is heavily involved in the pull.

Brittany here does a good job of explaining this. Go to 1:50 in the video where she discusses the upward trajectory idea.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

Funny! Email link to your post didn't show the video so before coming here, I went right to it because I was going to post it as demo of how squatty GS swing is. What is a squatty swing? To me, the "frame grab" in your post that shows the vid looks squat to me.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

Brittany's videos where a big part of what headed towards a more quad activating swing/snatch because I was looking for more muscles involved at once.

 

[Oscar]

Not So

Hypothetically, your example makes sense.

In practically, it doesn't work.

Based on your assumption, all individual who weight 80 kg would have the same Strength and Power Production Levels. Thus, a novice weaker athlete would use the same size Kettlebell and elicit the same Power Output as an elite athlete.

Kenny, I made the calculation based on a 1RM for snatches of 32 kg. There are many guys here who are snatching 40 kg for reps, so clearly these guys can snatch more than 32. Maybe for them the ideal snatch weight for power development is more than 24.

 

[Steve Freides]

I'd like to read that research article. Where can I find it?

Google something like

kettlebell swing force plate

I’ve heard the research cited several times but have never bothered to locate the precise source.

I agree with your idea that it’s impractical to measure a max swing. I don’t agree that an experienced coach’s guesstimate is useful in any scientific way. It’s useful, but you are making concrete suggestions about basing training weights on kettlebell swing percentages of max, and I don’t that _that_ is ever going to be practical.

-S-

 

[Bill Been]

Here's a thread that asks (and answers) some fairly relevant questions about the "30% of Body Weight For Power" idea:

Power Production ?