Bodyweight Working the last few inches of tactical pull-up

[BJJ Shawn]

Hello all,

I can currently do about 5-6 solid chin-ups with hands facing me, but I can only get my lips to the bar doing a tactical pull-up (which I can also do about 5-6 times, but can’t do a single complete rep). I am not ready to do a dedicated pull-up program right now, but I’d like to incorporate something simple to help me get those last few inches. Should I add some dead hangs? Get a chair and position myself at the top and try to hold it there? I would like to do a program in my next cycle, but for now it will only be to add a little extra to my current S&S.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[KB fiend]

Had the same problem in terms of getting chin over the bar.

Dead hangs are great. Try to do single arm dead hangs too, holding for 5 seconds even (switching sides) . Another great pull-up that carries over to fighter pull-ups is scapular pull-ups.

Try to incorporate these into your warmup. I did that almost every day when I was first doing pull-ups and that helped me.

LMK how it works out.

Btw adding pull-ups to S&S is great.

 

[bluejeff]

Get a chair and position myself at the top and try to hold it there?

That's what I would do.

My suggestions:

If the "top" range of the motion is the hardest, try jumping up to a flexed hang (chin above bar if possible) and just work on holding that. Start with short hold times (~5-20 seconds) and work up to ~30 seconds. Stay away from failure and gradually add time. Do it for 1-3 sets something like 2-3x/week.

You might not need to get to 30 seconds, but if you did you would have really solid strength there. Once you can hold for maybe ~20 seconds, try doing slow negatives from the top, trying to make the slowest part of the rep that top range. Do a handful of the negatives 2-3x/week.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

A simpler solution

1. Vid of your chinups so we can give you feedback what can be done better

2. After getting feedback from #1, run the fighter pullup program using chinups, start with a conservative rep max

 

[Steve Freides]

@BJJ Shawn, if you have a training partner, great if you can get him/her to give you just enough assistance to complete a full ROM pullup.

Another thing you might try is increasing your reps at chinups to 8-10.

-S-

 

[Mo04]

Coach Dan John recommends 3 drills for getting a pullup:
1. hang in bottom position of pullup
2. hang in top position of pullup
3. ab wheel roll out

Pull Ups

In my collection of books, magazines and other fitness related materials, I don’t have a lot on the pull up. It was the key exercise for most offseason athletes before the widespread adoption of the barbell and, yet, little was written about it. For grip, upper body strength, and core work...

danjohn.net

 

[Daniel Vintila]

Negatives to only half way down or slightly higher, hold for a second or two and then pull yourself up. Start with a few sets of one and recover properly then go for another set. Don't do your max number of sets, leave some in the tank. Your goal is to get lower and lower and make it all the way back up.
And then do some of the other works mentioned here: hanging both at the top or bottom of a pull up, actively.
Also kettlebell presses will help with pull ups. Make sure that you pull the kb from the top position back to the rack position.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I have been adding dead hangs after my S&S practice as recommended per the book, but I just wanted to get opinions on form. I am under the assumption that in a dead hang, you want to drop all your weight down, including letting your shoulders shrug up, but I'm not sure if that is correct or if I should pull my shoulders back down like you would prior to doing a pull up. Or maybe both versions are useful for different things?

After S&S, it is for recovery, but I don't know if that will improve pull up performance or if it would be best to add more in at other times with shoulders pulled down?

Thanks for any tips.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

You should practice both. One is a dead hang and one is an active hang (like getting ready to perform a pull up)

 

[BJJ Shawn]

You should practice both. One is a dead hang and one is an active hang (like getting ready to perform a pull up)

Perfect, that's what I suspected but I didn't know if my form was just off. Good to know, thank you.

 

[Steve Freides]

Practice both kinds of hangs, and also practice simply packing and unpacking your shoulders while hanging.

For pull-ups, figure out what you like to do at the bottom. Few people like to completely relax, but some do prefer a half-unpacked position at the bottom as a way to relax a little between reps.

-S-

 

[bluejeff]

I have been adding dead hangs after my S&S practice as recommended per the book, but I just wanted to get opinions on form. I am under the assumption that in a dead hang, you want to drop all your weight down, including letting your shoulders shrug up, but I'm not sure if that is correct or if I should pull my shoulders back down like you would prior to doing a pull up. Or maybe both versions are useful for different things?

After S&S, it is for recovery, but I don't know if that will improve pull up performance or if it would be best to add more in at other times with shoulders pulled down?

Thanks for any tips.

The concensus I have read from physios who work with aerial artists is that you should not do a 100% passive hang IF you have any sort of hypermobility in the shoulder. I would also advise against it if you have had any shoulder separations or joint instability. Since most people are tight in the overhead position, most people CAN do fully passive hangs.

There are two ways of doing active hangs (at least in my book):

1) "Pack" the shoulders by depressing the shoulder blades. Sometimes this cue is said as "down and back" HOWEVER....

...depressing the shoulder blades with your arms overhead essentially creates LESS SPACE in the subacromial space (where you rotator cuff lives!). Thus...

2) you can do an active hang by wrapping your scapulae around your ribs. This activates your serratus a bit and your lower traps, allowing both enough space to be had AND the ability to relax your lats at this position. This is the break the bar cue: think about rotating your entire arm, all the way from the shoulder joint, such that you would be bringing your pinkies together (think about strongmen bending steel bars)

Here is a great article on the topic:

RETHINKING SHOULDER POSITION IN CIRCUS ARTS

Empowering you with the knowledge and tools necessary to optimize your body.

www.cirquephysio.com

Both kinds of hangs are okay, but bear in mind that if you have impingement symptoms or anterior shoulder pain I would not spend much time in position 1. I would instead focus on drills that assist in overhead scapular rotation, which is its own topic.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

The concensus I have read from physios who work with aerial artists is that you should not do a 100% passive hang IF you have any sort of hypermobility in the shoulder. I would also advise against it if you have had any shoulder separations or joint instability. Since most people are tight in the overhead position, most people CAN do fully passive hangs.

I have an unstable AC joint (partial separation many years ago) and was having toothache like pain down my arm from impingement. Fully relaxed , 100% passive dead hangs, got me out of pain and I have been doing them for about 2 minutes total every day for a couple years now. They keep me OUT of pain. There are some things I just can no longer do because of the instability, but relaxed hanging is not one of them!

 

[bluejeff]

I have an unstable AC joint (partial separation many years ago) and was having toothache like pain down my arm from impingement. Fully relaxed , 100% passive dead hangs, got me out of pain and I have been doing them for about 2 minutes total every day for a couple years now. They keep me OUT of pain. There are some things I just can no longer do because of the instability, but relaxed hanging is not one of them!

Interesting! Glad they worked for you. So much of this stuff is subject to individual cases. I guess it’s best to defer to: “if it makes things worse, don’t do it, and if it makes things better, keep on doing it!”

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

1) "Pack" the shoulders by depressing the shoulder blades. Sometimes this cue is said as "down and back" HOWEVER....

...depressing the shoulder blades with your arms overhead essentially creates LESS SPACE in the subacromial space (where you rotator cuff lives!). Thus...

2) you can do an active hang by wrapping your scapulae around your ribs. This activates your serratus a bit and your lower traps, allowing both enough space to be had AND the ability to relax your lats at this position. This is the break the bar cue: think about rotating your entire arm, all the way from the shoulder joint, such that you would be bringing your pinkies together (think about strongmen bending steel bars)

I'd like to have your thoughts on using only scapular depression, not combined with retraction. So using the down cue but not the back cue. So more of a down and around cue. Using scapular depression and protraction. Not sure how easy it is to do, but you'd get the stability of the lat because of the down cue but also the serratus activation and upward rotation of the scapula. I was thinking about this with all the scapular work I've been doing lately.

 

[bluejeff]

I'd like to have your thoughts on using only scapular depression, not combined with retraction. So using the down cue but not the back cue. So more of a down and around cue. Using scapular depression and protraction. Not sure how easy it is to do, but you'd get the stability of the lat because of the down cue but also the serratus activation and upward rotation of the scapula. I was thinking about this with all the scapular work I've been doing lately.

From what I understand, to avoid any impingement issues, upward rotation is the key, and I think it mayyy be possible to keep upward rotation at a certain level of scapular depression. Some experimentation (and self-filming) might help you. That article I posted is a good starting place; I believed she recommends a position in-between full elevation and depression. If you start at full elevation and try the “wrapping” cue, you will likely find that your shoulders naturally depress a bit.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

From what I understand, to avoid any impingement issues, upward rotation is the key, and I think it mayyy be possible to keep upward rotation at a certain level of scapular depression. Some experimentation (and self-filming) might help you. That article I posted is a good starting place; I believed she recommends a position in-between full elevation and depression. If you start at full elevation and try the “wrapping” cue, you will likely find that your shoulders naturally depress a bit.

Thanks, I did go through the article before posting my message. I try and go through all the stuff you link as soon as I can, that way I don't forget about it. I'll really have to take some time and film my scapular movements in all the different planes and have a look at them after.

 

[Ryan Johnson]

I have recently address this same issue as i realized my pullup 'stalled' as the elbows neared my ribcage.

I used two strategies to increase my strength and range of motion at the top of the pullup. First was slow deep one and two handed rows with a TRX -style trainer (homemade). Really feel the lats pull the elbows back as far as possible and hold the deepest part of the lock for a count or two.

The second strategy has already been mentioned. I heard Dan John talk about owning the bottom and top of the pullup and the rest takes care of itself. So I held the top of the pullup for breathes, started with 5 and increased to sets of 10. This was not a passive hold at the top, but the whole time i was actively pulling the elbows back and trying to get higher through outright tension. Keeping my gaze slightly above horizontal helped with this as well.

A half dozen or so of these types of sessions 'fixed' the gap at the top of my pull.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I have recently address this same issue as i realized my pullup 'stalled' as the elbows neared my ribcage.

I used two strategies to increase my strength and range of motion at the top of the pullup. First was slow deep one and two handed rows with a TRX -style trainer (homemade). Really feel the lats pull the elbows back as far as possible and hold the deepest part of the lock for a count or two.

The second strategy has already been mentioned. I heard Dan John talk about owning the bottom and top of the pullup and the rest takes care of itself. So I held the top of the pullup for breathes, started with 5 and increased to sets of 10. This was not a passive hold at the top, but the whole time i was actively pulling the elbows back and trying to get higher through outright tension. Keeping my gaze slightly above horizontal helped with this as well.

A half dozen or so of these types of sessions 'fixed' the gap at the top of my pull.

That's good info, thank you.

 

[bluejeff]

I have recently address this same issue as i realized my pullup 'stalled' as the elbows neared my ribcage.

I used two strategies to increase my strength and range of motion at the top of the pullup. First was slow deep one and two handed rows with a TRX -style trainer (homemade). Really feel the lats pull the elbows back as far as possible and hold the deepest part of the lock for a count or two.

The second strategy has already been mentioned. I heard Dan John talk about owning the bottom and top of the pullup and the rest takes care of itself. So I held the top of the pullup for breathes, started with 5 and increased to sets of 10. This was not a passive hold at the top, but the whole time i was actively pulling the elbows back and trying to get higher through outright tension. Keeping my gaze slightly above horizontal helped with this as well.

A half dozen or so of these types of sessions 'fixed' the gap at the top of my pull.

I have also noticed that doing heavy/deep body weight rows with a strong emphasis on retraction allows me to do pretty strong pull-ups without training them regularly.