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Other/Mixed Yoga and deadlifting do not like each other

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Great interview, thanks for posting this. Some of the challenge for me is in balancing mobility and strength work for my back, I think a blend of these attributes would be ideal, agree w Stuart's comments that extreme work in both areas is not a good recipe.
 
I will disagree with one point of view Dr. McGill expressed - I think he oversimplifies things a bit to talk about not working on strength and mobility at the same time. One absolutely can work on both at the same time, but the key - which Dr. McGill does mention elsewhere - is focusing on the right areas for each.

Specifically, one can and should work on hip mobility while working on lower back strength and stability. The kettlebell swing is an excellent example of these two things combined in a single movement but one can also work on one's barbell deadlift and one's side split at the same time, and I do.

-S-
 
What an amazing interview. I would especially like people with desk jobs to hear about the damage they do when combining one hour of "random acts of variety" with 8 hours of sitting. So many colleagues I know suffer from this - they feel guilty about their sedentary lifestyle so they go all out couple times a week at the gym to "make up for all the sitting".
 
He's talking about professional athletes, those who have elite performance in special areas. Although I get the mechanisms that he's talking about, I don't know that the advice completely applies to those of us who want to be well-rounded, i.e. move well and be strong.

I do deadlifts and yoga, however, I don't try to get really flex-y with my spine when I do yoga these days. One can do a lot of yoga with basically a flat back.

Edit: After listening to the rest of the interview, I do see more the mechanism that he's talking about as doing these things in the same session; i.e. an ill-advised gym session for a desk-jockey, sitting all day, then going to the gym and doing sit-ups and burpees (softening the collagen), then lifting heavy (loading it). Bad combo. So I may take some of this into account when arranging the different things I do within a session of training. Not that I do burpees and situps - I avoid both like the plague - but doing things that soften the back, and then lifting heavy, or vice versa? Perhaps sometimes I do that, and may try harder to avoid it going forward.

Great interview, by the way, on both sides. Thanks for posting!
 
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I will disagree with one point of view Dr. McGill expressed - I think he oversimplifies things a bit to talk about not working on strength and mobility at the same time. One absolutely can work on both at the same time, but the key - which Dr. McGill does mention elsewhere - is focusing on the right areas for each.

Specifically, one can and should work on hip mobility while working on lower back strength and stability. The kettlebell swing is an excellent example of these two things combined in a single movement but one can also work on one's barbell deadlift and one's side split at the same time, and I do.

-S-

I haven't watch yet, but from what you say here, would it be wrong to deadlift heavy while trying to progress in the QL Straddle stretch from S&S?
 
I haven't watch yet, but from what you say here, would it be wrong to deadlift heavy while trying to progress in the QL Straddle stretch from S&S?

The way I took it was that training some spine mobility like done in some yoga postures can compromise the adaptation of your back and spine to heavy loads. Just like it works the other way round. The QL straddle stretch is a whole another animal. Mobility in itself isn't what he's against. For example, good hip mobility is a prerequisite to avoid compromising your back. Or did @Steve Freides understand it some other way?
 
Isnt Pavel kind of known for mix of both strength and mobility (including spine flexion and extension)?
 
good interview- thanks for posting. Always great to hear someone intelligent and articulate speak based on actual research. I'm sure in a casual interview like this he doesn't do a whole matrix of combining heavy strength and mobility, but I believe he's referring to extremes in some of these statements, while saying everyone has to find their own mix taking the tradeoffs into account.

In another interview somewhere, he did predict Tiger and Rory McIlroy's back problems from competing demands of heavy weightlifting (tightness) and the rotational "whip" of golf (mobility). I think he did that while Tiger was announcing one of his comebacks and Rory was No. 1 in the world or something and posting pics of him doing 265lb squats. It'd probably be in bad taste for him to mention them now to illustrate his point.

ps- the interviewer seemed to have very tight grip on the mic and posture, but after McGill did that exercise with him, he had a totally different body language.
 
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@Wesker11, what @Antti said is how I think of it. @Anna C, yes, you've got it right, IMHO, because you "don't try to get really flex-y with my spine when I do yoga these days."

@jac17, see all the above. Take a look at the Naked Warrior's instructions for the pistol - round your back as little as possible is my paraphrase (from memory) of it. That Pavel is exceptionally mobile and strong and, well, all that is, well, exceptional, and not necessarily a goal the rest of us need to have. Even though I can do some of those things, e.g., the full side split and even the suspended side split, I waited almost a decade after my back injury before I started stretching my lumbar spine, and I still don't do it much and am very careful about it when I do.

Note also Dr. McGill mentions that a walking program isn't even up for discussion - if you work with him, you walk. I am, based on my own experience, a big believer in walking as well. It is provides just the right kind of movement for your back.

-S-
 
good interview- thanks for posting. Always great to hear someone intelligent and articulate speak based on actual research. I'm sure in a casual interview like this he doesn't do a whole matrix of combining heavy strength and mobility, but I believe he's referring to extremes in some of these statements, while saying everyone has to find their own mix taking the tradeoffs into account.

In another interview somewhere, he did predict Tiger and Rory McIlroy's back problems from competing demands of heavy weightlifting (tightness) and the rotational "whip" of golf (mobility). I think he did that while Tiger was announcing one of his comebacks and Rory was No. 1 in the world or something and posting pics of him doing 265lb squats. It'd probably be in bad taste for him to mention them now to illustrate his point.

ps- the interviewer seemed to have very tight grip on the mic and posture, but after McGill did that exercise with him, he had a totally different body language.

Rory's back issues came from a rib injury that was completely unrelated to lifting weights. According to reports his rib injury is what caused his left rhomboid to flare up. Not sure his injury is related to lifting weights. With Tiger I could definitely see his lifting having an impact on his back issues. Tiger went 100mph 24/7. I remember reading he only slept a few hours a night and then did crazy SEAL type programs. That will definitely catch up to you in the long term.
 
He's talking about professional athletes, those who have elite performance in special areas. Although I get the mechanisms that he's talking about, I don't know that the advice completely applies to those of us who want to be well-rounded, i.e. move well and be strong.

I do deadlifts and yoga, however, I don't try to get really flex-y with my spine when I do yoga these days. One can do a lot of yoga with basically a flat back.

Agree - main thought I had was,"It's not what you do, it's how you do it".

For example, doing down dog with bent knees and DL'ing sensible weight I'm sure could could work together - but you're right - if you chase extremes of flexibility AND strength that could lead to issues AKA being an elite athlete
 
@Wesker11 This article's pretty typical of speculation I've read about Rory's injury...A fractured rib for Rory McIlroy means he 'should shut everything down' for at least a month - Golf Digest
From the article:
"What typically causes the fracture is a tugging action on the rib by the serratus anterior muscle, which is attached to the rib cage. As a golfer swings back, the muscle stretches and pulls on the ribs while moving the scapula forward (like throwing a punch with your left arm)."
" "It's often initially thought to be a back issue, because the fracture occurs on the posterior side of the body," Simpson says. "It feels like back pain." "

If this is correct about what's going on, something made the serratus strong and tight enough to cause a stress fracture. I don't think weightlifting alone would get the muscle strength that far ahead of the bone strength. In any event, as McGill implies, it doesn't seem to be the type of injury that occurs to someone training to be quick, loose, and supple.

Tiger totally lost me when the stories came out saying he made his SEAL "buddies" all dig into their own pockets for an expensive meal at a restaurant. Anyone that well off who can't at least offer to pick up a meal for people who give that type of service that selflessly has much worse problems than his back, imho.
 
@Wesker11 This article's pretty typical of speculation I've read about Rory's injury...A fractured rib for Rory McIlroy means he 'should shut everything down' for at least a month - Golf Digest
From the article:
"What typically causes the fracture is a tugging action on the rib by the serratus anterior muscle, which is attached to the rib cage. As a golfer swings back, the muscle stretches and pulls on the ribs while moving the scapula forward (like throwing a punch with your left arm)."
" "It's often initially thought to be a back issue, because the fracture occurs on the posterior side of the body," Simpson says. "It feels like back pain." "

If this is correct about what's going on, something made the serratus strong and tight enough to cause a stress fracture. I don't think weightlifting alone would get the muscle strength that far ahead of the bone strength. In any event, as McGill implies, it doesn't seem to be the type of injury that occurs to someone training to be quick, loose, and supple.

Tiger totally lost me when the stories came out saying he made his SEAL "buddies" all dig into their own pockets for an expensive meal at a restaurant. Anyone that well off who can't at least offer to pick up a meal for people who give that type of service that selflessly has much worse problems than his back, imho.

This study says that this injury is not uncommon for golfers. I still don't think his 265 lb squats had anything to do with it. Pavel seems to promote max strength, while being quick, loose, and supple. This is where I'm lost.

Stress fractures of the ribs in amateur golf players. - PubMed - NCBI
 
I too see his point.....I've never liked yoga anyway, haha!! And like @Wesker11 says I feel a little lost too. It seems there must be a cross over point somewhere, for each of us and a level of specialism, if there is one, that is. So where does that leave a generalist? I get the power/endurance spectrum but in terms of GPP where a broad base of athletic qualities is the goal - be it for a base to specialise from or to be a well rounded generalist athlete - by building from the centre out; power when needed from a solid base of strength and aerobic capacity providing the endurance quality with a foundation of movement competency.
The inability to tie one's shoes because of deadlifting specialism....a good thing for the sport, not so for movement and health. Compromises. Take your pick. The risk/reward thing. I'd go for dressing myself rather than lifting a bus and isn't a toe touch just an adequate level of mobility? Equally I'd rather be able to lift a bus than stick my foot in my ear whilst tuning my chakras. But stepping back from that divide, I guess we want a bit of both to push both to some kind of limit whilst remaining robust and mobile. And is that not Pavel's point? - relaxed strength, the ability to switch between the 2 instantaneously, that sprint mechanic, a punch, a kick or highly skilled gymnasts. And all things being equal, not in pain in everyday living, especially back pain.
So the deadlift/yoga dichotomy or a pain free generalist? I see it a bit like the diet world ......sugar and carbs raise insulin and puts you at risk overtime to diabetes. Whilst that view may well be kind of true, it isn't the whole thing and certainly doesn't apply to everyone all of the time. Going low carb all the time for fear of losing pancreatic beta cells and insulin resistance for a fit and healthy person is similar to a yogi not wanting to lift for fear of putting their back out and for a deadlifter not tending to movement function for potential loss of performance. Lacking a toe touch or lacking basic strength. Super strong and stiff v weak and bendy. In pain or pain free? Performance v health? We are talking extremes, I think. There is an answer to this conundrum......deadlifts and get ups, swings and get ups, strength and movement, fast and loose. No yoga required. Problem solved!!
 
@Wesker11 Pavel does promote good all-around programs, and he and McGill seem to have the utmost respect for each other, from what I've seen on-line and read. I think what McGill is saying, in this vid and others I've seen, is that you can't go all in on something that makes you "tight," and then do other things at a high level that require mobility and suppleness. I think he's saying the body tissue adapts differently for the different purposes, and too much one way can cause maladaptation for the opposite purp. I don't think he'd have any issue with a program was designed to be an optimal blend of what can be done both ways without causing problems, and I think that's what most of us strive for- a good combination that adds up to optimal fitness for what we do.

The golf article I posted before also says this is a common injury for amateur golfers and happens when they hit "fat" shots. "Fat " in this context means hitting the ground before the ball. The study you posted covered 11 beginning golfers, and this is same thing the article says. Hitting the ground when you're not braced for it can be a shock when learning golf ( I remember it well...). Rory, and all other PGA pros, are incredible ball strikers, and they rarely ever hit "fat" shots. So it is a rare injury for a pro golfer. That muscle and its connection to the rib "stop" the thoracic rotation on the backswing, and can bear the brunt of it when the forward rotation stops, but something 's out of balance when the muscle can pull hard enough over time to cause a fracture in the bone.

I've played much better golf after doing S&S, with the stretches, than when I did powerlifts. It's given me much better strength and coordination in the rotational aspect, much better connection of the power from the legs/hips into the shoulder turn, and much better ability to focus on the swing because I'm not feeling little twinges in the stabilizer muscles. I think McGill is more commenting on the general training methods out there than Pavel or SF methods.
 
@ali Finding the sweet spot for yourself and your goals is the whole challenge. Finding the optimum in any one thing is great, then combining the optimum from another area is an additional challenge- gets to be like calculus problems. Optimization with multiple variables....
 
I was listening to a podcast that was interviewing a golf trainer, I can't remember who it was though. But he was talking about how Olympic lifts and golf are incompatible in the sense that they require opposite adaptations. The Olympic lifts tend to make the spine and the back stiffer while golf requires the back to be more mobile. He was even able to predict one promising golfer's short career based on that person's training.
 
Well, this has been a great discussion and has given me a lot to think about. I have been wanting to use Front Squats to improve my vertical jump as the higher you can jump the further you can hit the ball. I have never loaded the squat before other than goblet squats. I do not need too much more speed in my swing, as I've been clocked at 115mph with my driver, but would like to make that my average rather than my best. My end goal was 300lbs, but maybe I'll just take it up to 200 and see how it feels. I haven't tested my vertical yet, but was planning on it this weekend. Would like to get it up to 20 inches.
 
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