Barbell You can not progress in the deadlift as fast as the squat (Defend the Deadlift)

[Ny Wc]

I love the deadlift. I think I like it more than the squat but :

It's easier to recover from a squat so you can train it more often.

Many linear beginner programs use the squat as the core lift. The deadlift is usually described as an IMPORTANT part of the program but is usually not used as often as the squat. (e.g Starting Strength, Stronglifts 5 x 5, GreySkull LP)

The low bar squat carries over to the deadlift much better than the deadlift carries over to the squat. Therefore, you make more progress squatting as you'll build both lifts with some minimal pulling to keep the groove greased. + Even without deadlifting, a big squatter will deadlift a lot better than a great puller will squat.

There is no beginner program using just the deadlift that can compete with the rate of progress made with a squat focused program. (e.g Pttp is much more cyclical than a linear squatting program.)

Which lift is "better" is probably a pointless argument (The deadlift lol) but the squat seems kind of like vegetables to me. They may not taste good but you have to eat them if you wanna be strong and healthy. Coarse vegetables are great sauteed in some oil but squats don't respond to oil as good as veggies do.

 

[MattM]

It's easier to recover from a squat so you can train it more often.

What makes you say this?

 

[TravisDirks]

What makes you say this?

I hope this point draws some discussion. I've definitely heard warnings about the "higher CNS demand " of deadlifting. And the longer more sore recovery.

Personally I've never had a problem doing deadlifts multiple days in a row.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I've been told that the high CNS demand only kicks in after a certain "weight", ~2x bodyweight to be specific.
PTTP kind of proves all the CNS stuff wrong, because it's deadlifting 5x/week and maintainable for a very long time.

The low bar squat carries over to the deadlift much better than the deadlift carries over to the squat. Therefore, you make more progress squatting as you'll build both lifts with some minimal pulling to keep the groove greased. + Even without deadlifting, a big squatter will deadlift a lot better than a great puller will squat.

Here you mentioned the reasons why the squat is the "main" lift yourself. The nice thing about the deadlift is that it improves by doing other lifts (different squats, swings, RDL, rows, pullups and more) with little volume in the actual lift.

 

[JeffC]

@Kettlebelephant I have been Axel Deadlifting at proportionally light weight compared to my Conventional Deadlift, and it really taxes my CNS. As soon as the grip starts to fail, everything starts to shut down, and it takes me a while to recover. I get that weird feeling, like I am vibrating

I regularly Deadlift over double body weight, and I rarely get that feeling, but I rarely fail lifts.

I Failed a max single Zercher Squat yesterday, and today I feel totally burned out. Although, I did punish myself with Back Squat 3 X 10 @ bodyweight, which in retrospect may not have been the best idea, but if I get a bad make, or a failed lift I feel like I owe myself more work.

 

[T2725]

The squat is used in many beginner programs due to its athletic carryover to many sport - running, jumping, cycling etc and would offer bigger bang for its buck in most cases. Once you progress from linear periodisation programs to more advanced then the balance evens out a bit more.

Have you followed Chris Duffins blog over at EliteFTS where he is specialising in the DL and pulling twice a week?

Is the squat easier to recover from? Well both the SQ and DL are very taxing. The TUT for the squat is greater due to the walk out and greater negative emphasis than the deadlift which would generally see a quicker eccentric portion.

The DL is mentally tough as you do not get to 'feel' the weight prior to execution.

The lower bar positision carryover to your deadlift is what works for you. There are many sumo DLers that benefit from a high bar SQ.

The rate of progress has many variables. If a program has a higher Sq to DL frequency then it's obvious where the gains will be favoured. Have you tried the other way around? If your levers favour the DL, you will of course experience faster gains and with having a personal preference as you will naturally train it harder and seek greater technical efficiency.

A lot of the SQ WRs have gone up over the years leaving the DL behind as equipment has improved vastly and benefits the squat more. Just look at the IPF records before they changed the weight classes in the last few years.

Speaking of equipment, there have been more bars available in recent years - SSB, cambered etc, chain and bands have been easier to add to a SQ than A DL set up.

Which exercise is better? For what? The SQ has a reputation as the King of exercises for a reason. Also, slightly deviating but in many falls and prevention workshops for the elderly, they teach a sit to stand exercise promoting greater legs strength for mobility, with other research indicating a possible link between leg strength loss and dementia's.

The DL is largely easier to learn and there are many naturally strong DLers out there who have never touched a weight from farmers and other manual labourers. Louise Simmons looked at why the Finns were such good DLers years ago. When the old Eastern block first entered PLing, they had HUGE squats in comparison to their DLs as most were former weightlifters. They utilised high squatting frequency but took them a while to adapt to an efficient DL starting position, being very difference from starting a clean or snatch.

 

[Ny Wc]

Once you progress from linear periodisation programs to more advanced then the balance evens out a bit more.

Have you followed Chris Duffins blog over at EliteFTS where he is specialising in the DL and pulling twice a week?

Is the squat easier to recover from? Well both the SQ and DL are very taxing. The TUT for the squat is greater due to the walk out and greater negative emphasis than the deadlift which would generally see a quicker eccentric portion.

The DL is mentally tough as you do not get to 'feel' the weight prior to execution.

The lower bar positision carryover to your deadlift is what works for you. There are many sumo DLers that benefit from a high bar SQ.

The rate of progress has many variables. If a program has a higher Sq to DL frequency then it's obvious where the gains will be favoured. Have you tried the other way around? If your levers favour the DL, you will of course experience faster gains and with having a personal preference as you will naturally train it harder and seek greater technical efficiency.

A lot of the SQ WRs have gone up over the years leaving the DL behind as equipment has improved vastly and benefits the squat more. Just look at the IPF records before they changed the weight classes in the last few years.

Speaking of equipment, there have been more bars available in recent years - SSB, cambered etc, chain and bands have been easier to add to a SQ than A DL set up.

Which exercise is better? For what? The SQ has a reputation as the King of exercises for a reason. Also, slightly deviating but in many falls and prevention workshops for the elderly, they teach a sit to stand exercise promoting greater legs strength for mobility, with other research indicating a possible link between leg strength loss and dementia's.

The DL is largely easier to learn and there are many naturally strong DLers out there who have never touched a weight from farmers and other manual labourers. Louise Simmons looked at why the Finns were such good DLers years ago. When the old Eastern block first entered PLing, they had HUGE squats in comparison to their DLs as most were former weightlifters. They utilised high squatting frequency but took them a while to adapt to an efficient DL starting position, being very difference from starting a clean or snatch.

Lately, I have been thinking that you can transition away from the back-squat after your linear program peeks. I'm still not sure that a beginner can make progress as fast without squatting. That's just me...I don't know. I'd love to hear what kind of progress total beginners have made pttp deadlifting in their first cycle. Maybe 2 or 3 cycles at most? What weight did you begin with and how far did it take you short term. I'd also be interested in what your diet was at the time. Were you in a caloric surplus, a deficit, or were you maintaining your bodyweight?

The high-bar squat is good for sumo deadlifters? That's very interesting. I've never heard that but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for mentioning that.

It's a pretty common belief that you can't recover from the deadlift as quickly as the squat. Deadlifting everyday requires a well thought out plan. Squatting everyday just means you squat as heavy as you can with good form everyday. Pavel has said that the low-back recovers very slowly and the deadlift is often described in bodybuilding as a low-back lift. I guess we need to specify that we are talking about conventional. I've never even thought about just sumo deadlifting for a total beginner.

But I would really be interested to hear what kind of progress beginners have made with pttp or any other form of program that used the deadlift without the back squat.

Arguing over which lift is better is pointless. Better for what yadda yadda. The squat is better for getting crushed by a heavy barbell though.

 

[T2725]

Linear periodisation programming is going to last you far more than 2-3 cycles @Ny Wc There are many varieties of programms of this nature. Linear periodisation is easy to set up and follow for the masses. If you are training hard and consistently, then think maybe around the 5 year mark (ish) before moving onto something like concurrent, tri-phasic etc.

DLing being more taxing to recover from than the SQ being common belief! Bro science or people have never really trained and worked the SQ hard. I was a hip and back squatter and this heavily taxed my back.

Yes I was referring to conventional deadlifts. Things like SLDL, Romanian, deficit DLs will all load the back a more.

 

[masa]

At the moment I can't do either squats or deadlifts due to injury. I did lotsa squats when I was following starting strength. Good program, but you have to eat and stretch a lot. Eventually volume was too much for me and I stopped. I like to do deadlifts nowadays, because you can do it often with a little volume and still make progress. I'm 190 cm tall and I feel that deadlifts suits me better than squats. So one thumps up for conventional deadlifts from me.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

You can love the squat, but using the rack is not the same as picking up something heavy of the floor!
Of course this has nothing to do with the benefits for your body and stuff like that, but the "feel and fun"-factor is a thing of importance in the world of lifting. At least to me

 

[Glen]

Think a deadlift is easier to push through grinders than a squat - this is what hands to make it harder to recover from in my opinion as the exercise favours you digging deeper to your true limit if hitting a rep max.

But look at olympic lifters - they pull heavy daily with no issues. Only difference is they chose a pull(s) which do not allow that true grinder experience

 

[Kyle Schuant]

Agreed, the squat will help the deadlift but not vice versa. But the great thing about the deadlift is you don't need a huge volume or intensity to progress it. Unfortunately the same is not really true of squats.

One aspect nobody's mentioned is very weak newbies and older trainees. Many can't squat on day one - they can hold onto something and drop down, but they can't get back up without using their hands. That is, mobility is rarely a limitation, but strength often is. Obviously we can start them with leg press, and/or shortened range of motion squats (to bench, then lower bench, etc), but it's nice to have something you can load them up with - and that's the deadlift. Basically if you can walk upright you can pull 40kg.

Occasionally you get an older person who'll have trouble pulling from the floor, they can do rack pulls, this works well, too.

Lastly, there are a lot of lower back issues out there. These people can lift alright provided they keep their trunk tight while lifting. This is hard to do with squats - they tend to loosen up at the bottom, and/or turn the low-bar version into a good morning - but they can deadlift fine.