all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed Zone 2 cardio question

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Are you saying that because 1 person died that the data that cardio exercise improves all cause mortality is invalid?

No, but two points: I question prioritizing it because I believe it matters less and less the older we get in comparison to maintaining strength and avoiding sarcopenia; I believe that the best advantage we can take of modern medicine is to gather information from it. Just saying everyone should do Zone 2 cardio for their health isn't wrong but I believe it's an oversimplfication. Everyone should understand the deck they've been dealt, learn about their current condition, and then make an appropriate plan which, while likely to contain some Zone 2, won't always prioritize it.

JMO, and indeed everyone's mileage may vary.

-S-
 
No, but two points: I question prioritizing it because I believe it matters less and less the older we get in comparison to maintaining strength and avoiding sarcopenia; I believe that the best advantage we can take of modern medicine is to gather information from it. Just saying everyone should do Zone 2 cardio for their health isn't wrong but I believe it's an oversimplfication. Everyone should understand the deck they've been dealt, learn about their current condition, and then make an appropriate plan which, while likely to contain some Zone 2, won't always prioritize it.

JMO, and indeed everyone's mileage may vary.

-S-

I don't think 'prioritize' means 'at the exclusion of everything else'.

And the guidelines from the health establishment aren't saying to do only cardio.
 
I am embarrassed to jump in to this conversation with a quite stupid “zone 2” training failure. That I want to share. Maybe you can help me understand the first failure. I will share the second one here and in an other thread as well, to prevent anybody to repeat the same stupidity with me, if there is any one who can reach my level of stupidity.

Stupidity1/ failure 1:
49 year old male, VO2Max at low level according to apple watch, considers himself someone with low cardio, takes more than 50 minutes to complete an S&S session @ 16 kg, with 18-20% bodyfat, 5 foot 8, 180 pounds.

17”/40’ / Mi speed, with 12 kg KB in the backpack, walking on sand with “sock shoes” so it makes as difficult as possible to walk. Only got 118 Bpm average with a walk 18 min. The 18 min rucking is due to stupidity number 2.

I am a slow walker, but with 12 kg and on sand I could not walk faster, I mean of course I could but c’mon, I am trying to find an easy way of Zone 2 training.

So what am I doing wrong ? :))) Maybe I should forget Zone 2, just walk w weight for 30 minutes for health from time to time and I am done. It seems as if I need to start an other “sports” to hit Zone 2! Rowing, Running, gym membership etc which I really have no desire. I am happily in the beginning of my S&S journey, I practice “movement”, and I was planning rucking for zone 2, 4 sessions each, but if Zone 2 requires this much effort, I don’t understand Zone 2. It seems I have to carry 20 kg minimum, makes a DIY solution almost impossible, because I will get fitter and then what?

Stupidity 2 / Failure 2:
The backbag’s zipper oppened when walking. 12 kg KB hit me on the right calf. Right above where Achilles is on surface. I had a year long Achilles tendinitis which went away recently hope it does not trigger that. If it hit me half an inch closer to my body in the x axis, then I could have a very nasty injury.
 
No, but two points: I question prioritizing it because I believe it matters less and less the older we get in comparison to maintaining strength and avoiding sarcopenia; I believe that the best advantage we can take of modern medicine is to gather information from it. Just saying everyone should do Zone 2 cardio for their health isn't wrong but I believe it's an oversimplfication. Everyone should understand the deck they've been dealt, learn about their current condition, and then make an appropriate plan which, while likely to contain some Zone 2, won't always prioritize it.

JMO, and indeed everyone's mileage may vary.

-S-
Well, honestly, I could not agree with the philosophy more. I am not suggesting you need or you don’t need Zone 2. Just about the philosophy about fitness.
 
I am embarrassed to jump in to this conversation with a quite stupid “zone 2” training failure. That I want to share. Maybe you can help me understand the first failure. I will share the second one here and in an other thread as well, to prevent anybody to repeat the same stupidity with me, if there is any one who can reach my level of stupidity.

Stupidity1/ failure 1:
49 year old male, VO2Max at low level according to apple watch, considers himself someone with low cardio, takes more than 50 minutes to complete an S&S session @ 16 kg, with 18-20% bodyfat, 5 foot 8, 180 pounds.

17”/40’ / Mi speed, with 12 kg KB in the backpack, walking on sand with “sock shoes” so it makes as difficult as possible to walk. Only got 118 Bpm average with a walk 18 min. The 18 min rucking is due to stupidity number 2.

I am a slow walker, but with 12 kg and on sand I could not walk faster, I mean of course I could but c’mon, I am trying to find an easy way of Zone 2 training.

So what am I doing wrong ? :))) Maybe I should forget Zone 2, just walk w weight for 30 minutes for health from time to time and I am done. It seems as if I need to start an other “sports” to hit Zone 2! Rowing, Running, gym membership etc which I really have no desire. I am happily in the beginning of my S&S journey, I practice “movement”, and I was planning rucking for zone 2, 4 sessions each, but if Zone 2 requires this much effort, I don’t understand Zone 2. It seems I have to carry 20 kg minimum, makes a DIY solution almost impossible, because I will get fitter and then what?

Stupidity 2 / Failure 2:
The backbag’s zipper oppened when walking. 12 kg KB hit me on the right calf. Right above where Achilles is on surface. I had a year long Achilles tendinitis which went away recently hope it does not trigger that. If it hit me half an inch closer to my body in the x axis, then I could have a very nasty injury.
Based on your MAF number the rucking isn’t too far off. You don’t have to be bumping up against the upper limit. In fact, if you heart rate is steady you are solidly in the aerobic range (if it drifts up during your LISS you may be going too hard).

That being said you don’t want to get injured. Personally would not do weighted walking on sand as I’ve rolled my ankle on more than one occasion. This may not be true for others. As a fellow 49 year old, avoidance of injury is near the top of my priorities.

If you want to stay on sand maybe doing run/walk? I find it very hard to keep my HR in MAF with a sustained jog.

Finally, I wouldn’t overthink it. If you could go for a 30 min walk daily you would likely get closer to your goal.
 
I am embarrassed to jump in to this conversation with a quite stupid “zone 2” training failure. That I want to share. Maybe you can help me understand the first failure. I will share the second one here and in an other thread as well, to prevent anybody to repeat the same stupidity with me, if there is any one who can reach my level of stupidity.

Stupidity1/ failure 1:
49 year old male, VO2Max at low level according to apple watch, considers himself someone with low cardio, takes more than 50 minutes to complete an S&S session @ 16 kg, with 18-20% bodyfat, 5 foot 8, 180 pounds.

17”/40’ / Mi speed, with 12 kg KB in the backpack, walking on sand with “sock shoes” so it makes as difficult as possible to walk. Only got 118 Bpm average with a walk 18 min. The 18 min rucking is due to stupidity number 2.

I am a slow walker, but with 12 kg and on sand I could not walk faster, I mean of course I could but c’mon, I am trying to find an easy way of Zone 2 training.

So what am I doing wrong ? :))) Maybe I should forget Zone 2, just walk w weight for 30 minutes for health from time to time and I am done. It seems as if I need to start an other “sports” to hit Zone 2! Rowing, Running, gym membership etc which I really have no desire. I am happily in the beginning of my S&S journey, I practice “movement”, and I was planning rucking for zone 2, 4 sessions each, but if Zone 2 requires this much effort, I don’t understand Zone 2. It seems I have to carry 20 kg minimum, makes a DIY solution almost impossible, because I will get fitter and then what?

Stupidity 2 / Failure 2:
The backbag’s zipper oppened when walking. 12 kg KB hit me on the right calf. Right above where Achilles is on surface. I had a year long Achilles tendinitis which went away recently hope it does not trigger that. If it hit me half an inch closer to my body in the x axis, then I could have a very nasty injury.
This is less about stupidity and more about learning how your body responds to training and what it "needs" to get into Zone 2. This is the "problem" with walking and/or rucking for Zone 2 work - an individual may need an uncomfortable pace or load to reliably hit Zone 2. You may also need to consider the impact of surface/terrain - sand might decrease your pace significantly and make it harder to hit the pace you need to elevate your heart rate enough.

This kind of opens up two follow up questions:
1. How are you assessing whether or not you are in Zone 2? Are you using calculated values?
2. What is the purpose of your walking?
 
@Steve Freides ....well said and agree with your view.
It's all a bit Fomo....come what may you must do 3-4 sessions of zone 2, or whatever it is for some spurious claim of 'longevity'.
And if getting into the weeds and differentiating further....lots of activity at a low level v a certain dosage of zone 2, there is no clear distinction. And so does it come down to population? A sedentary lifestyle offset by zone 2....fair enough....but if active with lots of easy movements, lots of walking plus exercise does that necessitate the need for zone 2?

I dunno. The blue zone longevity studies all feature low level exercise but no formal exercise. It could be argued then that formal exercise is a proxy for manual work and activity? In the absence of not living in Sardinia or Ischia, that is.

And what about wealth and health inequalities? Not being poor adds years to one's life, decades in certain parts of Scotland. But, it gets political from this point....

Yup strength and activity. Whether or not some or a lot of zone 2 is added is an open question....but yes, generally, strength first.
 
So what am I doing wrong ? :))) Maybe I should forget Zone 2, just walk w weight for 30 minutes for health from time to time and I am done. It seems as if I need to start an other “sports” to hit Zone 2! Rowing, Running, gym membership etc which I really have no desire.

This is a good point which we often overlook. Zone 2 by definition, I think, is endurance work. Endurance requires tolerance to the activity. Building tolerance takes time. Some activities are harder to build tolerance to than others. Many of them come with special hazards and pitfalls in that process of building.

Running is an easy solution -- if you already are a runner. Cycling and rowing -- same.

Most everyone already has a decent tolerance for walking -- so walking briskly, with a bit of a load, on a treadmill incline or uphill, or some combination thereof is often a great mode.

And then there are "odd" zone 2 activities... like @Boris Bachmann 's continuous snatching a 16 kg kettlebell for an hour ;)
 
I was perturbed by a nomenclature issue that Dr. Attia references in his above-referenced video.

there are zones for
  • Bike performance
  • heart rate (multiple scales depending on which metrics are estimated or measured),
  • breathing thresholds
  • and as Dr. Attia purports - lactate production.
So - I went down a few rabbit holes, got lost on the way back, and gave up.

I will continue using the talk test, and MAF heart rates.

the talk test is (after reviewing the strong endurance manual last night) solid for any amateur purpose.
And, the MAF numbers are plausible - if a bit off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ege
This is less about stupidity and more about learning how your body responds to training and what it "needs" to get into Zone 2. This is the "problem" with walking and/or rucking for Zone 2 work - an individual may need an uncomfortable pace or load to reliably hit Zone 2. You may also need to consider the impact of surface/terrain - sand might decrease your pace significantly and make it harder to hit the pace you need to elevate your heart rate enough.

This kind of opens up two follow up questions:
1. How are you assessing whether or not you are in Zone 2? Are you using calculated values?
2. What is the purpose of your walking?
Sir; thanks a lot. I am an Engineer by education but I guess I have replaced Iphone with my brain.

1-I was looking to Apple watch zone’s, assuming that they have calculated it for me. But it seems as if not.

What is best Zone 2 calculation in your opinion? Mafaton, There is an other one that takes in to account your resting rate, or some says %65-75 of your heart rate max.

2) My real objective would have been increasing my work capacity. I feel my cardio is a limiting factor for me when I exercise. While practicing S&S @16 kg, The last TGU feels light, but the session takes over 50 minutes. I know we are talking about a timeless approach which I do apply and love, but want to do some more to improve that.

Why Zone 2? I guess I am hearing a lot about benefits … and if it helps to improve my working capacity and some metabolic adaptaions on top, I will not say “no thanks”

Best

Ege
 
Sir; thanks a lot. I am an Engineer by education but I guess I have replaced Iphone with my brain.

1-I was looking to Apple watch zone’s, assuming that they have calculated it for me. But it seems as if not.

What is best Zone 2 calculation in your opinion? Mafaton, There is an other one that takes in to account your resting rate, or some says %65-75 of your heart rate max.

2) My real objective would have been increasing my work capacity. I feel my cardio is a limiting factor for me when I exercise. While practicing S&S @16 kg, The last TGU feels light, but the session takes over 50 minutes. I know we are talking about a timeless approach which I do apply and love, but want to do some more to improve that.

Why Zone 2? I guess I am hearing a lot about benefits … and if it helps to improve my working capacity and some metabolic adaptaions on top, I will not say “no thanks”

Best

Ege
For your current purposes MAF and/or the talk test will serve you nicely.
 
Sir; thanks a lot. I am an Engineer by education but I guess I have replaced Iphone with my brain.

1-I was looking to Apple watch zone’s, assuming that they have calculated it for me. But it seems as if not.

What is best Zone 2 calculation in your opinion? Mafaton, There is an other one that takes in to account your resting rate, or some says %65-75 of your heart rate max.

2) My real objective would have been increasing my work capacity. I feel my cardio is a limiting factor for me when I exercise. While practicing S&S @16 kg, The last TGU feels light, but the session takes over 50 minutes. I know we are talking about a timeless approach which I do apply and love, but want to do some more to improve that.

Why Zone 2? I guess I am hearing a lot about benefits … and if it helps to improve my working capacity and some metabolic adaptaions on top, I will not say “no thanks”

Best

Ege
I like Maffetone and the Talk Test, or even nasal breathing. I would suggest picking one and using it for a while, and then start paying attention to where the other one is at relative to it. What I mean is, if you pick Maffetone (180-49 = 131 max, 121 min), do that, follow it - it is your Guide. But also - pay attention to what your breathing is like when you are in that range. On the flip side, if you choose Talk Test, use it as your Guide - but maybe still wear a HRM and see where you heart rate is over the course of a run. Then you can start seeing where YOUR upper zone 2 is - where you normally fail the talk test relative to the HR - and then you can use either as your guide, depending on feeling.

How long have you been doing S&S, and how often? As you continue to practice, that time will continue to decrease. Keep in mind that passing the talk test (being able to speak 10-15 words in a breath) is different from being completely recovered.

I like using a clock as a guide to make sure I am not resting too long (or sometimes, to hold me back). Feel free to play and explore with that. For example, set a 2 min timer and do a set of 10 swings every 2 minutes. If you get to where the timer beeps and you are huffing and puffing and can't speak a full sentence, skip that round - write it down, and track it, but take that round off and then pick back up on the next one. Over time, you might find 2 min is WAY too generous and you cut it down; or over time you might find you could string 2 2-min rounds together initially before having to take a round off, but now you are able to do 5 2-min rounds before taking a break. These are both strategies to help organize your session and so that you can easily start seeing progress as you go, which is rewarding and encouraging. Feel free to NOT use these ideas as they are only one of many tools - and some people hate being constrained by the clock. If you do use them, sometimes take a break from using them and go by feel and see what your total time is.
 
Add a 20-45lb weighted vest and you’ll easily get to Zone 2.
This is the way . I’ll often add hand weights or 3 lb dumbbells, an incline, and we’re off to Zone 2. I’m also in n my mid-50’s so I don’t have as far to go to hit it.
 
So what am I doing wrong ? :))) Maybe I should forget Zone 2, just walk w weight for 30 minutes for health from time to time and I am done. It seems as if I need to start an other “sports” to hit Zone 2! Rowing, Running, gym membership etc which I really have no desire. I am happily in the beginning of my S&S journey, I practice “movement”, and I was planning rucking for zone 2, 4 sessions each, but if Zone 2 requires this much effort, I don’t understand Zone 2.
I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
It seems I have to carry 20 kg minimum, makes a DIY solution almost impossible, because I will get fitter and then what?
Walk faster? I think you're overthinking it.
Stupidity 2 / Failure 2:
The backbag’s zipper oppened when walking. 12 kg KB hit me on the right calf. Right above where Achilles is on surface. I had a year long Achilles tendinitis which went away recently hope it does not trigger that. If it hit me half an inch closer to my body in the x axis, then I could have a very nasty injury.
I don't think you need it, but I bought a 40lb one of these and like it:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ege
Thanks a lot. I have received great many advices again which all makes sense… well I am lucky :)
 
I like Maffetone and the Talk Test, or even nasal breathing. I would suggest picking one and using it for a while, and then start paying attention to where the other one is at relative to it. What I mean is, if you pick Maffetone (180-49 = 131 max, 121 min), do that, follow it - it is your Guide. But also - pay attention to what your breathing is like when you are in that range. On the flip side, if you choose Talk Test, use it as your Guide - but maybe still wear a HRM and see where you heart rate is over the course of a run. Then you can start seeing where YOUR upper zone 2 is - where you normally fail the talk test relative to the HR - and then you can use either as your guide, depending on feeling.

How long have you been doing S&S, and how often? As you continue to practice, that time will continue to decrease. Keep in mind that passing the talk test (being able to speak 10-15 words in a breath) is different from being completely recovered.

I like using a clock as a guide to make sure I am not resting too long (or sometimes, to hold me back). Feel free to play and explore with that. For example, set a 2 min timer and do a set of 10 swings every 2 minutes. If you get to where the timer beeps and you are huffing and puffing and can't speak a full sentence, skip that round - write it down, and track it, but take that round off and then pick back up on the next one. Over time, you might find 2 min is WAY too generous and you cut it down; or over time you might find you could string 2 2-min rounds together initially before having to take a round off, but now you are able to do 5 2-min rounds before taking a break. These are both strategies to help organize your session and so that you can easily start seeing progress as you go, which is rewarding and encouraging. Feel free to NOT use these ideas as they are only one of many tools - and some people hate being constrained by the clock. If you do use them, sometimes take a break from using them and go by feel and see what your total time is.
It is my third session indeed for S&S. I was trying to improve my overhead mobility and stability for a long time, I have decided to start it after advices in this forum. I might be confusing talk test with full recovery … I will pay attention to that.

And talk test to me makes sense for rucking and cardio training as well and nasal breathing is a very good indication that you stay in a “good” zone for cardio.
 
Just over an hour ruck with a 75# load. (I weigh 195) All on sidewalks with a few decent hills. Used chest strap for HR. Love these workouts. View attachment 20474

That's some good rucking, and a heavy weight!

Interesting that it took a while for your HR to come up. A good sign, I'd say. Was it flat terrain? What is that other lower line showing?
 
Back
Top Bottom