Kettlebell Front squat as a main lift?

[Kenny Croxdale]

Another reason which affects to volleyballing is i tend to do too much overhead work the day before practicing volleyball...

Overhead Work The Day Before

Preforming overhead work that day before that drain you is going to impede your volleyball overhead technique.
It amount to a sprinter preforming taxing leg training exercise that day before his sprint training.

Front Squats

What's puzzling is that you believe that overhead work hurts your volleyball technique development; so, your going to shelf it. Yet, you don't share that view about performing Front Squats creating issued with your jump technique or power for volleyball. The same applies to one, as the other.

Muscle Fatigue

Muscle fatigue alters the development of technique in any sport.

Technique is optimally developed when you are full rested and recovered. That is the primary reason if technique and strength training are preformed in the same training session, technique if trained first.

With that said, a well written and executed strength training program combined with your volleyball training (Conjugate Training) will optimize your results.

A program that is not designed correctly, fatiguing your muscle the day before your technique training, ensures poor technique is developed.

Take Home Message

The overhead exercise aren't the issue.

It come down to how you write and execute the strength/power training program in conjunction with your technique training.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

What's puzzling is that you believe that overhead work hurts your volleyball technique development; so, your going to shelf it. Yet, you don't share that view about performing Front Squats creating issued with your jump technique or power for volleyball. The same applies to one, as the other.

I don't think we have enough data to support that argument. It's possible, e.g., that his squats aren't taxing but in the range of weight where they serve to "wake up" some muscles or movement patterns, while at the same time his overhead work is heavier, or he has technique flaws in it, or any of a list of other things.

-S-

 

[Opiaswing]

One of the goals I aim to achieve someday is being able to do a double 48 kg KB front squat... while wearing a 160 lbs. Mir weighted vest. For no less than ten reps straight or 5x5.

I can front squat way more than that using a barbell, but DKBFS is a tricky animal.

160lb vest!! I can't even imagine that.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I don't think we have enough data to support that argument. It's possible, e.g., that his squats aren't taxing but in the range of weight where they serve to "wake up" some muscles or movement patterns, while at the same time his overhead work is heavier, or he has technique flaws in it, or any of a list of other things.

-S-

Muscle Fatigue

If heavy and/or exhaustive leg training is performed the day prior a sport or activity that demands lower body power, means technique and performance will suffer.

Anecdotal data has demonstrated it. I am sure there is research data that supports that was, as well.

"Wake Up" Muscles and Movement Patterns

Yes, this works providing the right protocol is employed.

Post Activitation Potentiation Training, PAP

This method employs performing a Limit Strength Movement, resting and performing a Power or Speed Movement. This is the foundation of my training.

Building Strength and Power With Complex Training - World Class Bodybuilding Forum

As part of this article notes, "Pavel Tsatsouline defined complex training in his book, Beyond Stretching as "[t]he plyometric/weight lifting sequence".

Research support this protocol is effective. Speculation indicates there are four factors that may elicit the increase in Power and Speed. However, it appears that prime factor is that it "Wakes Up" the Central Nervous System.

This method could be employed in a day of volleyball technique training. However, it is not practical.

Stimulate Don't Annihilate

The key in basically "Super Setting" a Limit Strength Movement and a Power and/or Speed Movement is it not to perform a Limit Strength Movement with a load so heavy that it dampens or kills the following Power and/or Speed Movement.

Resistance Training The Day Before

Front Squatting performed two day prior to volleyball training by performing Power Movements; Front Squat or Overhead work with a moderate load, low repetitions, low sets and perform explosively are a better option than the day before.

Dynamic Stretching During Technique Training

For someone who is interested in "Waking Up" the Central Nervous System prior to a movement, this is an easier and a more practical method.

The movement needs to incorporate a Stretch Reflex that simulates but doesn't annihilate.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve A]

Someone here mentioned recently how a world record squatter (1,200lb) would do front squats with double 40kg kettlebells which in the grand scheme of things is still relatively light, but clearly hard work!

It gets mentioned a lot, but missing some context. As told by Donnie Thompson (the PLer using double 40s and saying they are enough) in Hard-Style Spring 2008:

"The thing is, I'm doing those after I've done Squats, Deadlifts, about three hours into the training routine."

That's a lot different than using them as the primary (or only) drill for leg strength.

 

[Hung]

i don't feel taxing at the legs after kettlebell front squat, the hardest working part is my midsection. I feel comfortable running and jumping after squat, maybe because of the weight is light.
about the overhead work: they have many drills that raises both your arms in long peroid of time, sometime 2-3 minutes. I don't perfer to raise my arm overhead with anykind of weight.

It come down to how you write and execute the strength/power training program in conjunction with your technique training.

I agree with this

 

[Opiaswing]

It gets mentioned a lot, but missing some context. As told by Donnie Thompson (the PLer using double 40s and saying they are enough) in Hard-Style Spring 2008:

"The thing is, I'm doing those after I've done Squats, Deadlifts, about three hours into the training routine."

That's a lot different than using them as the primary (or only) drill for leg strength.

I wasn't aware of that; thanks for clarifying! Makes me feel better about my purchase of two 44kgs for front squats; seems more feasible for a layman like myself now!

 

[MikeTheBear]

It gets mentioned a lot, but missing some context. As told by Donnie Thompson (the PLer using double 40s and saying they are enough) in Hard-Style Spring 2008:

"The thing is, I'm doing those after I've done Squats, Deadlifts, about three hours into the training routine."

That's a lot different than using them as the primary (or only) drill for leg strength.

i don't feel taxing at the legs after kettlebell front squat, the hardest working part is my midsection.

These two should be read together. When Donnie made his statement that front squats with 2x40 were "hard," I immediately thought that it was hard due to the stabilization demands on the midsection. These demands are greater with kettlebells because the center of gravity is further out (slightly) than for barbell front squats. The upper back also works very hard to keep the rack high and prevent the upper back from rounding forward, which would result in dumping the bar if a barbell is used.

 

[Sauli]

Double front squat could be main lift of any program. I used soju & tuba program for dbl front squats and it was okay.
Dbl 32s may build decent leg strength and muscle.
I know that If guy works up 10-15 solid reps with 32s he can backsquat ~130-150kgs and deadlift propably 200kg. Not elite level strength, but stronger than most people.

I personally squatted 110kg and deadlifted 150kg pretty easily and all I did was long cycle with double 20s.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I'm amazed at the investment everyone makes in kettlebells. One of the things I like about them is using one bell for so many things. I can't imagine getting multiples of so many bells in order to have the best one(s) for each job.

I still believe a lifetime worth of training can be had with 5 single bells: 16, 24, 32, 40, and 48kg.

There are some things that ketlebells do better, but rather than spending so much on kettlebells, why not just invest in a barbell for squats.

 

[Hung]

i don't buy a heavy barbell and the squat rack while i still live in an apartment . I will get sued for that. Kettlebell, no problem. People mistake it with Chinese medicine pot

 

[Opiaswing]

I'm amazed at the investment everyone makes in kettlebells. One of the things I like about them is using one bell for so many things. I can't imagine getting multiples of so many bells in order to have the best one(s) for each job.

I still believe a lifetime worth of training can be had with 5 single bells: 16, 24, 32, 40, and 48kg.

There are some things that ketlebells do better, but rather than spending so much on kettlebells, why not just invest in a barbell for squats.

I still feel kettlebells (even 5 of them) are so much more house/apartment friendly than a power rack or squat stands, a barbell and a bunch of plates.

Also, kettlebells are a completely different beast in a lot of ways to barbells. I much prefer kettlebell swings and snatches to barbell deadlifts and snatches; there is an element of rhythm and momentum that makes the lifts very different. Obviously if someone is training with the sole purpose of getting strong as possible without caring how they do it, then barbell lifts are more proficient, but then I hazard to say you have the wrong attitude to training; if you're not doing something for the enjoyment of doing it then how long will you stick with it in the long run?

 

[Hung]

I personally squatted 110kg and deadlifted 150kg pretty easily and all I did was long cycle with double 20s.

nice. There is a hinge movement in long cycle, which could explain the deadlift, but heavy squat is amazed me.

Dbl 32s may build decent leg strength and muscle.
I know that If guy works up 10-15 solid reps with 32s he can backsquat ~130-150kgs and deadlift propably 200kg. Not elite level strength, but stronger than most people.

hmm, hope that i could get that number in the future

 

[Opiaswing]

Double front squat could be main lift of any program. I used soju & tuba program for dbl front squats and it was okay.
Dbl 32s may build decent leg strength and muscle.
I know that If guy works up 10-15 solid reps with 32s he can backsquat ~130-150kgs and deadlift propably 200kg. Not elite level strength, but stronger than most people.

I personally squatted 110kg and deadlifted 150kg pretty easily and all I did was long cycle with double 20s.

nice. There is a hinge movement in long cycle, which could explain the deadlift, but heavy squat is amazed me.

hmm, hope that i could get that number in the future

To add to this, I pulled a 185kg deficit deadlift after 2 weeks of gym time with nothing but 64kg swings prior to it, so Sauli's numbers check out somewhat. I say this as swings (and similarly long cycle) did nothing for my squat numbers.

If whoever it is added some double 32 front squats on top of that long cycle, then I don't doubt both of those numbers could be feasible.

 

[Sauli]

@Opiaswing @q.Hung
Earlier that year I also did few dbl front squat cycles with 24s and 32s. And complexes with double 20s. So it's not propably long cycle wich carries over, but point is that dbl kettlebell work can make you pretty strong. Specially if you work with heavier bells.. currently I'm working my double presses. Dbl 32s are currently 5RM. Hopefully soon I can press and squat them couple of reps more. And later this year I'm gonna try my barbell lifts again and I lift propably more even without ever picking up barbell.

I could also mention that I made those barbell lifts in small competion where I did olympic lifts, 5min long cycle set with 24s and powerlifts. It was tough day, but it also showed that kettlebell training carries over to all strength sports. At least to some degree.

 

[Opiaswing]

@Opiaswing @q.Hung
Earlier that year I also did few dbl front squat cycles with 24s and 32s. And complexes with double 20s. So it's not propably long cycle wich carries over, but point is that dbl kettlebell work can make you pretty strong. Specially if you work with heavier bells.. currently I'm working my double presses. Dbl 32s are currently 5RM. Hopefully soon I can press and squat them couple of reps more. And later this year I'm gonna try my barbell lifts again and I lift propably more even without ever picking up barbell.

I could also mention that I made those barbell lifts in small competion where I did olympic lifts, 5min long cycle set with 24s and powerlifts. It was tough day, but it also showed that kettlebell training carries over to all strength sports. At least to some degree.

Very cool! Double 32s is pretty heavy if you think about it; thats theoretically a 64kg swing each rep of long cycle. I think the versatility of kettlebells in making lifts more difficult without adding weight has more benefit than just adding more plates to a barbell because it opens up the body to new aspects of movement (whether that be mobility, stability, etc).

For example doing front squats with double 32s would build a good squat, but doing overhead squats with double 32s would make one even stronger in many aspects!

Now I'm excited to get my double 40s!