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Barbell Olympic Lifts?

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Didn't SF have an Olympic Lifting course? What ever happened to that?

This?

 
@watchnerd yes, I only really remember the course offered once or twice. Obviously COVID will prevent more I'm sure. Just didn't know if it was still on the SF radar!
 
@watchnerd yes, I only really remember the course offered once or twice. Obviously COVID will prevent more I'm sure. Just didn't know if it was still on the SF radar!

I just don't know what Strongfirst methods could bring that hasn't already been explored in the past ~70 years of the sport being meticulously researched.

The class also seems to leave out the full lifts.
 
Didn't SF have an Olympic Lifting course? What ever happened to that?
I don't think it has been held yet. The only one scheduled was March 2020 in Italy, and it had to be cancelled due to COVID.
The class also seems to leave out the full lifts.
Yeah, I was interested until I saw no full clean and no jerk... So I did USAW Lvl 1 instead.
 
Hmmm, could we learn the lift by ourself? I watch too much Clarence Kennedy videos and now I'm very curious with the lifts
 
Hmmm, could we learn the lift by ourself? I watch too much Clarence Kennedy videos and now I'm very curious with the lifts

You can certainly try, and instructional videos are helpful, but if you can find an instructor or take a course it will really help. I am not sure at what stage it will help the most, but probably 1) when first getting started, to learn basic technique, and 2) a little while later when you have the basic movements down and can put some more power to it -- and before you learn bad habits that have to be unlearned.

Don't forget to learn how to fail lifts safely. There are resources for that, too.
 
Hmmm, could we learn the lift by ourself? I watch too much Clarence Kennedy videos and now I'm very curious with the lifts
Find an established progression model or beginner program. Video your lifts often (side and front) so you can see what your movement actually looks like, not what you feel it looks like. Then compare to the lift guidelines. If something is off, it could be a technique flaw that can be learned, or may be a weakness that should be built with specialty exercises. Not ideal but not impossible.
 
Yeah, I was interested until I saw no full clean and no jerk... So I did USAW Lvl 1 instead.

Disclaimer - I have not been at all involved in anything to do with this course whatsoever.

That said, the approach seems to me focused on the kinds of Olympic lifts done in the weight room of a sports team, e.g., rarely - if ever - a full squat clean, but lots of power cleans. As with our kettlebell training, the focus isn't the sport itself. Kettlebell doesn't mean GS, bodyweight doesn't mean gymnastics, and the SFL teaches a lot more than just the 3 powerlifts.

This sums it up, I think - it's from the course description linked to earlier in this thread:

"We designed this seminar specifically for individuals interested in learning proper weightlifting mechanics to ultimately increase their power and athletic ability."

-S-
 
Disclaimer - I have not been at all involved in anything to do with this course whatsoever.

That said, the approach seems to me focused on the kinds of Olympic lifts done in the weight room of a sports team, e.g., rarely - if ever - a full squat clean, but lots of power cleans. As with our kettlebell training, the focus isn't the sport itself. Kettlebell doesn't mean GS, bodyweight doesn't mean gymnastics, and the SFL teaches a lot more than just the 3 powerlifts.

This sums it up, I think - it's from the course description linked to earlier in this thread:

"We designed this seminar specifically for individuals interested in learning proper weightlifting mechanics to ultimately increase their power and athletic ability."

-S-

Fair enough, @Steve Freides.

I think I might call it a "weightlifting" course in that case, not an "Olympic Lifting" course. The Olympic Lifts are 1) snatch, 2) clean and jerk. There's no other way to see it, in my mind. I would expect to learn those two lifts in the two days of training. And... I would not use a promotional photo of someone doing a split jerk if that wasn't part of what was being taught!

But having said that, I am actually more interested in the content now than I was a year ago when I wanted to initially learn the O-lifts. I know them now. I just want to learn them deeper, and perhaps tie them in more to StrongFirst methodology. So it does look promising for that aspect.
 
I did USAW Lvl 1 instead.
USAW

These are the experts when it come to learning Olympic Lift movements.

Other organizations who teach it rarely have the same level of knowledge or expertise with the Olympic Movements.

Level 1 Club Coach

I took the Level 1, as well; taught by Mike Burgener, years ago. Bergener's one of the best Olympic Lifting Coaches in with USAW.

His son, Casey Burgener was on the USA Olympic Lifting Team at the Olympic Lifting Training Center in Colorado Springs.

His daughter was one of the best Olympic Lift Technician that I have seen.

The best part of it was the class room work that examined the various pulling method of different lifters and some other anecdotal data.

Take Home Message

If presented with the opportunity of learning the Olympic Lifts, movements, USA Weightlifting assure you that you are learning from a qualified Coach; that isn't the case with many of the other organization who teach it.

What you usually end up with is a "Jack of All Trades and Master of None".
 
If presented with the opportunity of learning the Olympic Lifts, movements, USA Weightlifting assure you that you are learning from a qualified Coach; that isn't the case with many of the other organization who teach it.
I would agree, however, one caveat is that the USAW Level 1 is actually a coaching course. They don't teach or coach the individual attendee on their lifts specifically. They teach the teaching method for the lifts so that you, as a coach, can teach them to others. There is some expectation that you are pretty familiar with the basics already, and you don't get individual correction on your own technique. That said, I was impressed with the quality of the material and felt like the coverage was fantastic. I attended in the Atlanta area in January 2020.

The best scenario for learning is probably to join a local barbell club that has USAW certified coaches working there and be around a lot of competent coaches and lifters for many months and years. I don't have a local club like that in my area so I 'm kind of on my own... But fortunately the distance coaching works well, and my coach @randyh is USAW Lvl1 & 2 certified and teaches both of that courses. So I've been home alone in 2020 in my home gym learning weightlifting. Weird year, 2020. :)
 
the USAW Level 1 is actually a coaching course. They don't teach or coach the individual attendee on their lifts specifically. They teach the teaching method for the lifts so that you, as a coach, can teach them to others. There is some expectation that you are pretty familiar with the basics already, and you don't get individual correction on your own technique.
The Practical Aspect of The Course

The practical aspect of the USAW Club Coach that I took involved Burgener along with many individual Olympic Lifting Coaches in the gym.

Information was provided and demonstrated. It was then followed by the group practicing the movement with the Olympic Lifting Coaches viewing our execution of the movement with corrections make on our technique.

There was definitely some "Individual corrections on...technique" involved in the course. That is a vital component of learning with anything; Instruction on how to correctly perform the movement, demonstrating the correct movement, then have the student perform the movement; observe their movement and demonstrate what they are doing right, what they are doing wrong, then have them perform it correctly.

That was exactly what Burgener and his coaching staff did.

I grew up performing Olympic Movement. So, I had a fairly good foundation.

However, what I learned in the class room and in the gym with from the Olympic Coaches was some fine tuning on my technique.

I received some individual coaching on my lifts, which helped eliminate some minor flaws. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

Familiarity With The Lifts

Some of the individual our session did have much "Familiarity". As with most group classes there were some individual with a more knowledge and other who were in the novice area.

The best scenario for learning is probably to join a local barbell club that has USAW certified coaches working there and be around a lot of competent coaches and lifters for many months and years.

Hands On Learning

Yes, nothing is better than hands on learning. It hard to find certified Olympic Lifting Coaches.

However, Olympic Lifter who have been around for a while are usually really good coaches; they are hard to find, as well.

One of the best coaches, when I stared Powerlifting was a former Olympic Lifter (working on his PhD in Mathematics). Our training program revolved around the basic Powerlifts, as well as, Olympic Movements: Power Cleans and Snatches, Squat Cleans and Snatches, Jerks and Push Presses.

Distance Coaching

There some value.

However, as we know the quality of it is dramatically lower than hands on. Kid going to school online has demonstrated that; failure rates are up.

Touch Training For Strength
Amazon product ASIN 087322437X
One of the practical aspects of learning involves touching a lifter to demonstrate how the movement needs to be correctly performed or to help the lifter identify the degree of muscle involvement.

These days you need to consider the ramification or touching someone and have it misconstrued.

My Touch Training Example

After telling and demonstrating to someone how to perform perform a Back Extension that engage the Glutes to a greater degree with Neck Packing, I then had them perform the movement incorrectly and then correctly.

I told them that I was going to poke there butt with my index finger when performing both movements. Doing so, ensure they felt the difference in the glute activation of each.
 
Information was provided and demonstrated. It was then followed by the group practicing the movement with the Olympic Lifting Coaches viewing our execution of the movement with corrections make on our technique.

There was definitely some "Individual corrections on...technique" involved in the course. That is a vital component of learning with anything; Instruction on how to correctly perform the movement, demonstrating the correct movement, then have the student perform the movement; observe their movement and demonstrate what they are doing right, what they are doing wrong, then have them perform it correctly.

That was exactly what Burgener and his coaching staff did.

The course I attended had a little bit of that but it sounds like a lot less than what you had. Mostly the students coached each other, using the teaching method that had been presented by the instructor in the lecture. It was about 60% lecture and 40% hands on -- and ALL of the hands on was using nothing heavier than technique plates. We had one instructor for a class of about 30 students, so that might have accounted for some of the difference. The hosting coach did invite us to stay for an hour or so when the course was over on Sunday to practice with heavier weights and get a little bit of coaching, so that was helpful, but that was not part of the course.
Distance Coaching

There some value.

However, as we know the quality of it is dramatically lower than hands on. Kid going to school online has demonstrated that; failure rates are up.

This is true, however, I like to look at it as different -- not necessarily "dramatically lower."

Kids and school as an example -- sure, kids may be doing worse by our traditional measures. But maybe our traditional measures -- designed to go along with classroom instruction -- aren't the greatest measure of "success." Many kids are thriving right now (my stepdaughter's kids are per our conversation yesterday) and have expanded their confidence, skills, and learning beyond what they might have in traditional classroom instruction, which has different constraints.

For distance coaching, it takes some extra effort, but there's more opportunity to review and critique videos (slow-mo, breaking it down, repeating the review rather than just seeing the lift once in real time), plan and adjust programming, and communicate in ways that can be referenced and reviewed.
 
Mostly the students coached each other, using the teaching method that had been presented by the instructor in the lecture.
Lean By Teaching

You definitely learn by teaching. It requires y0u to analyze, break things down, determine what someone is doing correctly and incorrectly.

Great Athletes Are Poor Coaches

Most great athlete are poor coaches. They innately are able to correctly do the right thing without thinking.

These athletes just do it without breaking it down and understanding how it works or being able to do so with others.

Good/Great Coaches

These are athletes that good athletes who don't have great genetics. They are overachievers in regard to their ability to perform better than they should. They do so by learning to break things down and understand how to make thing better; developing better technique, learning to write better training program and execute them, etc.

They learn how to make thing work for them, as well as others.
ALL of the hands on was using nothing heavier than technique plates.

Good Point

Our group was limited to light loads. Everyone can preform the movement correctly with a light load.

Technique flaws show up as the load increases. It somewhat I like the treadmill stress test to determine if you have cardiovascular issues.

With that said, let me...

Correct Myself

The USAW is, as you stated is geared toward coaching, rather than learning the lifts.

Disregard that part of my previous post. You were right and I was wrong. Okay? :)

To learn the lifts, you need to work with a coach with weekly training session for a number of week to learn the really learn the movement.

Many kids are thriving right now (my stepdaughter's kids are per our conversation yesterday) and have expanded their confidence, skills, and learning beyond what they might have in traditional classroom instruction, which has different constraints.
Computer Schooling

NBC News reported last night that Texas School's failure rate had increased from 11% to 42% with Computer Schooling. NBC reported that school kids across the nation were struggling.

I suspect part of the issue is parents are at work or not involved much with their kids Computer Schooling. So, most kids may be skipping class.

It sound like your stepdaughter is more involved with her kids, which makes a huge difference.
 
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I'm a high school teacher (currently isolating with COVID). Kids can do better remotely but they're likely either the exception or not pushing their potential. Like in person coaching, face to face will be your best bet for the vast majority. It also depends on the level. Easier topics/lifts/standards with a motivated or talented athlete/student can be easy. Pushing them to higher levels than they can do on their own means they need help getting there. This applies to the brain or the body. So like always.... it depends.
 
I think I might call it a "weightlifting" course in that case, not an "Olympic Lifting" course. The Olympic Lifts are 1) snatch, 2) clean and jerk. There's no other way to see it, in my mind. I would expect to learn those two lifts in the two days of training. And... I would not use a promotional photo of someone doing a split jerk if that wasn't part of what was being taught!
Language <sigh>. A rose by any other name ...

You are 100% correct about the photo, no arguing with that!

-S-
 
USAW

These are the experts when it come to learning Olympic Lift movements.

Other organizations who teach it rarely have the same level of knowledge or expertise with the Olympic Movements.

Level 1 Club Coach

I took the Level 1, as well; taught by Mike Burgener, years ago. Bergener's one of the best Olympic Lifting Coaches in with USAW.

His son, Casey Burgener was on the USA Olympic Lifting Team at the Olympic Lifting Training Center in Colorado Springs.

His daughter was one of the best Olympic Lift Technician that I have seen.

The best part of it was the class room work that examined the various pulling method of different lifters and some other anecdotal data.

Take Home Message

If presented with the opportunity of learning the Olympic Lifts, movements, USA Weightlifting assure you that you are learning from a qualified Coach; that isn't the case with many of the other organization who teach it.

What you usually end up with is a "Jack of All Trades and Master of None".
Sounds like it's evolved a lot over the years, which is a great thing. I took the Level 1/Club Coach course back in '98 and at the risk of sounding egotistical, I learned approximately zero. I just took it to get the credential. But that's probably because I had two great coaches.
 




FWIW, I agree with Oleksiy's point that the degree of chest forward on the snatch may vary by height of the lifter, but I may be biased as we're the same height and same weight class.

Coincidentally, we're also both power jerkers, which is probably due to similarities in limb/torso ratios.


I don't like to use the phrase "life-changing" because I reserve that for really significant events such as the birth of a child. But in terms of my "weightlifting life," Torohktiy's instructional videos have been life-changing.

As for forward lean in the bottom of the snatch, at 5' 8" I'm 3 inches shorter than Aleksey but if I pinch my shoulder blades together as he demonstrates I can get a pretty good forward lean and a stable overhead position. What your shoulders and scapula do in the bottom position of the snatch are critical and, to be honest, I'm not sure that USAW teaches this correctly. Interestingly, I had a USAW coach teach that the position was one of external rotation with crooks of the elbows pointing up and elbows pointing down. This is wrong. Very wrong.
 
Call it 'lift-changing'.... Only one letter off. ;)
I don't like to use the phrase "life-changing" because I reserve that for really significant events such as the birth of a child. But in terms of my "weightlifting life," Torohktiy's instructional videos have been life-changing.

As for forward lean in the bottom of the snatch, at 5' 8" I'm 3 inches shorter than Aleksey but if I pinch my shoulder blades together as he demonstrates I can get a pretty good forward lean and a stable overhead position. What your shoulders and scapula do in the bottom position of the snatch are critical and, to be honest, I'm not sure that USAW teaches this correctly. Interestingly, I had a USAW coach teach that the position was one of external rotation with crooks of the elbows pointing up and elbows pointing down. This is wrong. Very wrong.
.
 
As you can tell from the above post, I am biased towards Torokhtiy's technique. He has been traveling around the world giving seminars. Dmitri Klokov has also been giving seminars but not with Torokhtiy - you could say they're competitors. However, the technique they teach is identical, which makes sense since both athletes were brought up in the Soviet system - Torokhtiy is Ukrainian and Klokov is Russian. For lack of a better term, I will this technique the "Soviet technique" since it is used in Russia, the former Soviet republics, and even Eastern Europe.

The other major player in the weightlifting world is China. They have developed their own technique which is different than the Soviet. Good article here about the differences in the two.


Although the article compares the Chinese pull to the American pull, I think the American technique is based largely on the Soviet model - depends on who is teaching it. Based on my limited observation of the Chinese pull, the difference seems to be that the Chinese use a more hip dominant pull while the Soviets use a quad dominant pull.

Torokhtiy has tons of free content on Youtube and I've learned a lot from just the videos. If you do the drills I believe you can teach yourself the Soviet technique. Although I had worked with a coach before I changed my technique just by watching Torokhtiy's videos. Yes, I had an advantage since I understood the basic idea behind the pull, but the Soviet technique was different from the bad things I was doing. Note: I don't blame my coach for this.

Needless to say the Soviet technique is my preferred technique and I have no interest in learning anything else. That doesn't mean that the Chinese method is bad. China produces great lifters so they must be doing something right. However, I do not know much about it so I can't answer questions about it.

As for USAW, it's been a while since I read about their technique. I first tried to teach myself Olympic lifting around 2000. Coaches were scarce and CrossFit had not yet become popular (yes, we can criticize CrossFit all day, and I have, but they're use of the Olympic lifts in their WODs greatly increased the popularity of weightlifting in the US). They few articles about weightlifting on the Internet taught the "jump and shrug" method. The jump cue isn't necessarily bad, but it's a "jump" where your feet don't leave the ground. If that makes no sense, don't worry about it. The Soviet method mentions jumping once or twice but does not rely on it as a cue. The shrug happens involuntarily as your body tenses itself in response to rapidly pulling a heavy weight. Torokhtiy never mentions the shrug and Klokov has emphatically stated that there is no shrug. So, the "jump and shrug" teaching method is somewhat antiquated.

What about plantar flexion aka getting up on your toes? USAW actively teaches it. Torokhtiy mentions is almost in passing, that it's okay to do. Klokov thinks that, like the shrug, plantar flexion just kind of happens as a follow through to the aggressive extension of the knees and hips. The Soviet method focuses on the important aspects of the pull does not major in the minors. It's actually a beautifully simple teaching method.

Lastly I will discuss the dreaded "arm pull." When I was reading articles in 2000 they all said DON'T PULL WITH THE ARMS EVER. Today, coaches seem to respect their lifters' intelligence. An arm pull is not bad if it happens at the right time. An "early" arm pull is bad. For instance, if a lifter gets the bar into the power position and then the first move is an arm pull so that the lifts looks like cheated upright row, this is BAD. Instead, a pull with the arms is the last thing you do. Mike Burgener actually referred to this as the "third pull." My coach freaked out when he heard me use this term because it is not something USAW teaches. Also, the intent isn't so much to use the arms to pull the weight higher. Instead, you use the arms to pull yourself under the bar. Why? Because basic physics tells us that the acceleration of gravity is constant in a vacuum. Although we don't Olympic lift in a vacuum, we are so close to the earth that any air resistance is not relevant. So, once the bar reaches its apex it starts to fall - faster than we'd like. If all you do is "drop under" the bar by lifting your legs, you and the bar will fall to the earth and the same rate, and you will never be able to get under the bar. Could you try to time your drop under so that you start dropping while the bar is still going up? Good luck with that. This attempt at timing will result in a lifter not finishing the pull and will result in complete failure once any sort of decent weight is on the bar. Here's what to do instead. When the bar reaches the apex of the pull, it becomes weightless for a microsecond. When you pull with your arms you will be able to slingshot yourself under the bar faster than the acceleration of gravity. You have now won the race to the bottom and can get under the bar. Obviously if the weight is light there will be some upward pull on the bar. That's fine as long as the lifter understands that the arm pull is really a pull under.

I should write a book on this or something.
 
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