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Kettlebell How fast do we swing Kettlebells?

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That reminds me of the conversation in this thread
The feet of a kettlebell practitioner

The conversation about horizontal and vertical forces started on about the second page. We could have used you there, Manuel!

I got some good 2H and 1H swing videos with the tape markings, etc. yesterday and should be able to add them here tonight or tomorrow.
 
Yes 10g seems a lot. I understand the physics, I'm too lazy to run the math. I have a hard enough time just swinging the bell. I was just repeating what it says in S&S.
 
Manuel Fortin said:
@Anna C, sure. I must be able to download it on my computer. Simplest is to upload it to your Google Drive/Microsoft One Drive/... and send me a link. If you don't know how to do this, you can upload to YouTube and I will find a way to download it from there.

The video analysis software I use is powerful but basic. I may be wrong, but so far I thing it uses only 2D coordinates. Analysis will be much simpler and accurate if you film from the side, with a camera at about hip height. I could probably do some 3D stuff using Excel, but that would be much more time consuming. The disadvantage of this point of view is that we may lose the kettlebell for a frame when it goes between the legs. However, over 10 swings I am sure I can find a swing where we see bit of the kettlebell on each side of the legs between adjacent frames. For calibration, give me your height, or even better, hold an object of known length besides you, such as a yard stick, at some point in the video.

Other things that would help would be wearing tight fitting clothes, or shorts, of a color that contrasts with the color of the kettlebell so that we see the kettlebell as well and as much as possible as it goes between the legs. A good contrast between the kettlebell and the background would also be better. Thinking about it, if you can mark the center of the kettlebell on its side with a small piece of tape, for example white tape on a black or bell, that would be awesome. That way, tracking the center of the kettlebell becomes really easy.

While we are at it, I have been a lurker on the forum for a while and I remember that the question of the difference between 1H and 2H swings comes up pretty often. If you can film a set of 1H swings too, we could answer a lot of those questions. You could do one with the 24 and one with a 16.
Click to expand...

Ok here is the video, it includes, all w/ the same 24kg kettlebell:

2 sets of 10 2H swings
2 sets of 10 1H swings (R, then L)
1 set of 10 2H "Overspeed (Shadow)" swings
2 sets of 5 snatches (R, then L)

I figured the Overspeed might be interesting, as well as the snatch if that is possible to measure.

I hope that works! Looking forward to some interesting analysis. I sent the download link by PM.

 
I had a few minutes free today and took a look at Anna's video. I did not have time to look at the snatches, but looked at the "regular" 2H swings (2HSW), the 1HSW and the shadow swings (SSW). Since the software I use requires identifying the reference point (here the center of the kettlebell) in each frame, I did not analyze all swings within each set, as that would take a lot of time. I analyzed two spaced apart (at beginning and end of set) 2HSW and saw really similar numbers, so I only looked at one complete 1HSW and 1 complete SSW.

Results are for 2HSW: max speed about 4m/s (9 MPH) and max acceleration about 2.8g.
Now, for a bit of a surprise, the numbers were really close to that for both the 1HSW and SSW. With the imperfect methods used, there was no significant differences. SSW had a bit larger max acceleration at 3g, but it's difficult to say if it's real or due to errors in the way the position data was acquired.

That surprised me a bit at first. You would expect that forcefully pushing the kettlebell back in SSW would change these numbers, but when you think a bit about the difference between shadow and regular swings, you realize that the difference is mostly at the top of the swing, where the kettlebell is not moving fast. The main difference in the shadow swing is that there is no "float", and that shows as acceleration never gets close to 1g (free fall) as in the regular swings. Instead, acceleration basically stays at 1.3g of more.

Also, I know that 1HSW feel slower than 2HSW when I do them with a heavy, for me, weight. That may be due to imperfect technique as there is basically no difference in maximum speed or acceleration between 1HSW and 2HSW in Anna's videos.

I will look at the snatches and compare them to swings in my next post.
 
Based on quickly eyeballing each set in the video from first hike to arms vertical before parking the bell at the end of each set, I see two hand swings taking about 15s, one hand swings taking 16 or 17s, and overspeed swings taking about 13s. Not sure what it MEANS...
 
Very interesting, @Manuel Fortin. Thank you for your analysis work!

So, approx 9 mph is the bell speed, close to "3G" of weight at max acceleration, and not a lot of difference between 1H and 2H swings, although the 1H swings are a tiny bit slower as Steve noticed (I did some stopwatch timing and I think my left hand swings are a tiny bit slower than right... interesting... looks like under a second of difference from the 2H swings by my calc.). And overspeed (shadow) swings change the bell's momentum at the top and make it slightly more than "1G" on the way down, but not much change to the overall acceleration speed out of the hinge. I'd say this corresponds to how it feels, but yes, it is surprising compared to what you might expect.

Great stuff! In afterthought, I probably should have positioned exactly 90 degrees to the camera for best accuracy. And would it be interesting to do a series: 5 swings each (with rest in between): 16, 24, 32, 40, and 48kg? Maybe there is a sweet spot for max acceleration.
So if mine and Geoff N.'s are both close to 3g... I am a little skeptical that anyone can get 10g. But I'm sure that greater than 3g is possible.

Questions for anyone: What do you suppose is the ideal speed, and ideal acceleration (virtual weight or "G")? Would the ideal change based on the actual weight? Should 1H swings be as identical as possible to 2H swings in speed, acceleration?

Looking forward to the snatch analysis.
 
@Steve W. 1HSW are a bit slower, but they seem to have more amplitude, so that makes sense. More distance to travel equals more time to cover the distance, if speed does not change. As to the overspeeds, they don't even get close to shoulder height. By the same logic, they should take less time.

@Anna C ideal for what? My best guess is that for both strength and conditioning, the answer is not too easy, not too hard ...

Is 24 kg easy, medium or heavy for you?

Also, this is a lot of fun, but anyone with access to a good lab would run circles around this in accurracy.

As to the 10g figure, see my earlier comment. Nobody is accelerating a ketlebell at 10g, except maybe for the guy throwing it over a bar really high above him. I remember seeing some strong guy in a video doing this on this forum.

What is amazing is that a 200+ lbs man and a much lighter woman ( no offence Anna, but Geoff has a more developped musculature) move a kettlebell at similar speeds and acceleration. That tells a lot about why the kettlebell is a good tool, and that is coming from a guy who loves deadlifts, the kind done with a heavy barbell, well a somewhat heavy one in my case.

Ok, one last hypothesis, grip really limits acceleration. In my case, that feels right. Anna or any one else, did you try having someone tape a kettlebell to your wrist and see if more power can be exerted?
 
Now, the snatch results. All swings were similar, but the snatches are a bit different. Maximum speed was a bit larger (about 4.5 m/s, or 10 mph). Maximum acceleration is still about 3g, so a bit larger than 2HSW, but when you look at acceleration as a function of time, this maximal acceleration is exerted for longer. In the swings, the acceleration would increase to the max, be held for a single frame, and then decrease. In snatches, the acceleration increases to a max and stays around that maximal value for a few frames before decreasing.
 
Yep, that's about how it feels.

I think I need to order a T-shirt that says "I snatch at 10 mph" :)
 
Anna C said:
I am a little skeptical that anyone can get 10g
Click to expand...

There's a pretty fearsome video of Al doing overspeed swings somewhere - that might be approaching the boundaries of what is humanly possible....
 
Yes, awesome science indeed! Its always great when a forum member's special expertise can help us understand what we do.

In this whole analysis and discussion, I too am most intrigued by the shadow swings. Re-reading S&S, I think the 10g was referring specifically to the overspeed eccentric backswing, so perhaps this is where we have the most control over the speed and therefore holds great potential for development. A few points which may be relevant:

1) I do them a little differently than what may be intended in S&S. I learned from Al, and he describes in this thread that there is a subtle difference. S&S shadow swings
So basically in my overspeed swing, most of the "extra effort" is in the arresting the bell's ascent and re-directing it back down. Others may not focus so much energy on the re-direction at the top, and focus more energy on accelerating the descent.

2) Whichever method is used, mine are somewhat weak, as I haven't been doing them lately (that may change).

3) 24kg is probably not my optimum weight. S&S says "Employ overspeed eccentrics or shadow swings only with light kettlebells -- 30% of your bodyweight or less -- and only in two-arm swings. Hike the bell back with all-out acceleration and aggression." 24kg is slightly more than 30% of my bodyweight, and I would guess that for women the ideal weight might be less than that, since there is more upper-body strength involved.

I think Al's swing contrast video that @krg was referring to is this one, that was the one originally posted in this article: Military Deployment Prep: A Program for Hardening the Soldier



The article has a good description of the mechanics of it. 6 regular swings, then 6 overspeed swings.

One other thing about shadow swings... I have never understood why they are recommended for light days" in S&S.... They will smoke you in a hurry, and are NOT easy. But then, maybe this goes back to me using too heavy of a weight, and focusing a lot of energy on that direction change at the top of the swing rather than on the backswing.
 
@Anna C - yep that's the one - great video, such a clear difference between the swing styles

@aciampa - Al, what weight were you swinging in the overspeed video in Anna's post? We might also need your inside leg measurement for Manuel to do his physics ;)
 
I will try to analyze Al's video when I get a chance. I am not sure that this will work as the shadow swings seem to be pretty fast, and I feel that the kettlebell will be really blurry when I look at the video frame by frame. This type of video analysis usually uses high speed cameras and highky visible markers on the points we track from frame to frame. In the present conditions, locating the center of the kettlebell may be a bit difficult. We'll see.

I will be on vacation for the next two weeks, and that means less time spent at my computer, so it may be a few days before I get to that.

Al, how tall are you, so that I can callibrate distances in the video?
 
I cannot help but admire Anna's feet in her speed video. They're planted rock solid, they don't move at all. Even with the snatches, those feet are firmly attached to the floor. Her body makes no bow shape either, just a clean line, even when angled to support the snatch. Beautiful form, great role model to strive towards.
 
Thanks, @Katzedecimal, kettlebells have helped me appreciate my size 10.5W feet (and hands to match) :)

The heavy snatches are getting dialed in thanks to Al Ciampa's A+A snatch protocols; currently on the 5th week of a 2nd round of Plan 201, and using the 24kg almost exclusively now, with a pretty high volume.
 
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