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Other/Mixed Strength with Endurance for Grappling

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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JayNBJJ

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Hello, new to the forum and big fan of Strongfirst and Pavel. I am 47, have been strength training (with great success) for a year, and I am also a BJJ/Grappling practitioner. I am competing in BJJ at the end of August and feel that I need to improve my cardio/endurance. Currently I follow a strength program largely based on Pavel's 80/20 article which focuses on 5x5 training for the main lifts - Deadlift, Squat and Bench press. I also added in some TGU and Swings - and maybe a curl or two -I admit I am ashamed that I went against what Faleev/Pavel stated in the article but my wife demands the hotness so I try to comply...my question is this, is S&S three days a week (I know it is meant to be done daily but I train BJJ three days a week on top of 4 days per week 80/20 5x5 program) a good addition with the goal of shedding fat and improving endurance/cardio? And can it be done on the same day immediately following my 5x5 training (typically only do one major lift per workout)?? Is this too much?? Are there other recommendations for improving endurance/cardio?? I have searched the forums and hope someone can provide me with some specific feedback on combining strength and endurance training back to back on the same day. Even if the feedback is don't do it and stick with the 5x5 and train BJJ 6 days a week to improve your endurance. Thank you for your time.
 
I think there are studies that "reveal" training two antagonistic goals should be done on different days. I think training them together negated and possibly reduced the effects of both when trained together. I believe the best way they found if performing both in the same day is to do conditioning in the AM and strength training in the PM.

Long slow distance at a MAF heart rate is popular on the forums here but I think you'd be served well with running some 200m sprints twice per week. Maybe start with 2 or 3 and see how it feels for a couple weeks in addition to all your other training. I would eventually randomly cycle through 3, 5, or 7 sprints each session.

In opposition, what do you feel daily S&S instead of 5x5 would not be as good for improving your BJJ? I honestly think daily S&S is one of the best wrestling/combat improvement programs out there. You could do it in a circuit fashion one day per week to help train your work capacity (i.e., 2x10 Swing, 2x1 TGU, 2x10 Swing, 2x1 TGU, etc.).
 
Bro Mo said:
I think there are studies that "reveal" training two antagonistic goals should be done on different days. I think training them together negated and possibly reduced the effects of both when trained together. I believe the best way they found if performing both in the same day is to do conditioning in the AM and strength training in the PM.

Long slow distance at a MAF heart rate is popular on the forums here but I think you'd be served well with running some 200m sprints twice per week. Maybe start with 2 or 3 and see how it feels for a couple weeks in addition to all your other training. I would eventually randomly cycle through 3, 5, or 7 sprints each session.

In opposition, what do you feel daily S&S instead of 5x5 would not be as good for improving your BJJ? I honestly think daily S&S is one of the best wrestling/combat improvement programs out there. You could do it in a circuit fashion one day per week to help train your work capacity (i.e., 2x10 Swing, 2x1 TGU, 2x10 Swing, 2x1 TGU, etc.).
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Thanks BroMo. I started with Pavel inspired 5 x5 because I wanted to increase strength and muscle density. At 47, I want to make sure I am building a solid foundation of strength that will carry me well into my senior years. Also, my wife trains the same strength program I do (we workout together) and we are very happy with the strength gains we have made. We have incorporated 2x /week TGU and Swings (I had read somewhere that both Pavel and BJJ blackbelt and "kettlebell master" Steve Maxwell were in agreement that TGU and Swings give you 80% of the benefits of all other kettlebell movements combined, so bang for the buck was the reasoning). With regards to S&S being the only supplemental training to BJJ, I guess ignorance and lack of awareness of what S&S was would be the reason I have not chosen to go strictly that route. Steve Maxwell believes that if you want to improve and build capacity/endurance in your sport, the best way is to practice that sport. I think I am leaning towards sticking with the 5x5 as it has worked, and I like your idea of incorporating some sprints (because I hate jogging - lol). On top of that, I plan to increase the frequency of rolling (sparring) during each week. I am aware of the risks and dangers of overtraining and am trying to find balance with all of this and another thing I call "life". Very much appreciate your feedback.
 
I train BJJ and for the most part I never needed anything other than basic S&S and maybe weighted push ups and chin ups. S&S assisted greatly with my rolling cardio and hip strength, the TGU's all over strength. Best of luck with your BJJ.
 
I periodically compete in BJJ as well, and I'd say I'm intermediate across the board fitness-wise. (Right now I'm working on just getting to more classes.) I'm prone to "training ADD" and was wondering if anyone who has worked on S&C with martial artists had any general baselines for strength and conditioning. Obviously it helps to be stronger, but at what point do we usually start to see diminishing returns? (e.g. I imagine a 2xBW Bench Press wouldn't be much of a worthwhile goal for someone trying to compete in the IBJJF.)

On a related note, Andrew Read's article linked to a sheet of strength standards for Judo.

JudoFitnessStrengthStandards.JPG
 
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I do BJJ and Judo. Here is my experience with S + C.

- Powerlifting or heavy barbell lifting has always made me feel slow and heavy on the mat and I felt like I couldn't apply the strength against weaker but more mobile opponents. It also left me with low back pain, usually from ending up inverted or in weird positions the day after heavy squats or deadlifts. Shoulders were also constantly hurting.

- ROP with Pullups didn't make me feel slow and heavy, but I didn't feel like the strength transferred. It did however put on muscle which I felt kept me injury free.

- S + S gave me the most transfer in terms of strength on the mat. I felt as though I could muscle through my opponents both standing and on the ground. I did not however, feel that it helped my endurance on the mat. I also didn't put on as much muscle as with ROP + Pullups and every time I worked up to the the 40kg I got severe golfers elbow. I loved the transfer but didn't like the injuries so I switched to bodyweight strength training instead which is what I do now.

- Bodyweight strength training puts on more muscle than S + S and helps my joints feel better. It also makes it easier to move my body on the mat but I can't out muscle my opponents like I could with S + S. Endurance on the mat did not improve with bodyweight training either.

- At the beginning of this year I decided to add Yoga everyday to my routine. I originally started it to improve my flexibility. What I found was that my endurance on the mat went through the roof and I don't ever gas out anymore like I used to. It also improved my movement on the mat tremendously. I don't know how to describe it other than I can finally flow. My flexibility has not improved that much though but the other benefits are just too great to stop. The addition of Yoga also caused my resting heart rate to go from the mid 70's to the low 50's.

My advice is to do S + S for strength, if your body can handle it, and do Yoga for cardio, conditioning, and recovery.
 
I'm not a BJJ practitioner, but I've done just a little bit of wrestling. Therefore from your post I perceive that BJJ is important and the lifting is to supplement that. Having done S&S I really can't think of a better all around program unless someone had a specific deficit or injury that needed work. As far as gaining endurance, I believe that is best built on the mat. I'm sure there are certain drills that you have in your BJJ practice that would lend to better endurance.

If BJJ is not that important and you are looking for just improved strength and endurance then I would suggest 3 days of A+A style snatches along with 2 LSD runs per week. Good luck.
 
Jan said:
@Francisco M : Welcome to the forum :)
How do you do your yoga? Is it a flowing thing or static postures?
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Hi Jan,

I consider myself a beginner at Yoga so I have been doing mostly static postures, and just recently started doing a bit of Sun Salutations. I make sure to use proper Yoga breathing (minimum 4 sec in, 4 sec out), and if I start to lose it then I back off the pose or switch to another one. One I get better, and can keep my breathing, I will progress to and start incorporating more flows.

I am currently doing the Yoga for BJJ program because they have short routines, and routines for stiff people like me which make it possible for me to do Yoga daily. It's also very geared to BJJ players.

But my favorite Yoga for beginners is Iyengar because they focus on good body alignment, use props to make poses more accessible for people like me who are not very flexible, and most important proper Yoga breathing. However it's hard for me to get to class because I train grappling 5 to 6 days a week.
 
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