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Kettlebell Heavy deadlifts vs heavy kB swings

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Jamesjones

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Has anyone else found kettlebell swings with a heavier bell a viable substitution for heavy deadlifting for lower back strength. My view is yes as my lower back feels far stronger than when powerlifting style deadlifting
 
@Jamesjones, this has been discussed quite a bit recently, both here and on other platforms.

Many people find heavy kettlebell swings a viable substitute for some of the deadlifts in their program. Most typically, however, heavy swings are not used as a substitute for heavy deadlifts but rather for deadlifts that would be done with a lighter weight and a focus on speed. Speaking as a competitive deadlifter, I would not consider heavy swings to be a substitute for heavy deadlifts if improving my 1RM deadlift was my goal.

-S-
 
"if improving 1rm deadlift was my primary goal."
Great condition added to that. I check in with deadlifts a few times per year to make sure its at least 2xBodyweight, otherwise swings keeps my hinge "strong enough". Answer almost always seems to be "it depends"....
Thx Steve!
 
Only speaking for myself... KB swings/snatches help my deadlift. They maintain the pattern and build the grip. But to improve my deadlift I need to deadlift (and squat, honestly. The squat builds my deadlift). I would say the kb will certainly maintain my deadlift (without deadlifting).
 
What is a heavy deadlift and how many percentage of that would you need to swing to upkeep it?
I have lost quite a lot on my deadlift since I stopped doing it, even though I swing.
No regrets though.
 
Pressurechief said:
What is a heavy deadlift and how many percentage of that would you need to swing to upkeep it?
I have lost quite a lot on my deadlift since I stopped doing it, even though I swing.
No regrets though.
Click to expand...
I think you have your answer, which is, "Heavier than you've been swinging." :) Carryover will vary from person to person, but people seem to use, roughly, 25 to 50% 1RM - that's a number off the top of my head, but people with a 400-500 lbs. DL have been using 100 and even 200 lbs for swings.

But as I said above, these are people who are substituting swings for speed day in their deadlift program, not substituting it for their heavy deadlift day.

It might be interesting to learn the deadlift 1RM of people who've achieved Sinister, which features 100 swings @ 48 kg, performed on a clock, for men.

-S-
 
Jamesjones said:
Has anyone else found kettlebell swings with a heavier bell a viable substitution for heavy deadlifting for lower back strength. My view is yes as my lower back feels far stronger than when powerlifting style deadlifting
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Like with most questions... it depends! ... on how much you deadlift, how much you swing, and what your goal is.
 
All I know is when I bumped up to 32kg swings my normal deadlift weight feels a lot lighter.
 
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My opinion: usually, when somebody asks a question in this vein, I suspect they haven't actually gotten to "heavy". To me, a heavy deadlift does not feel like a heavy swing, and vice versa. They are related, sure,.but not the same. A heavy deadlift requires full-body tension in a way that I do not think the swing does.

The real question is, does everyone need to deadlift heavy? And the clear answer is no. Just, don't think that you aren't leaving something on the table. Leave it, and be ok with leaving it.

Just my opinion.
 
Steve Freides said:
I think you have your answer, which is, "Heavier than you've been swinging." :) Carryover will vary from person to person, but people seem to use, roughly, 25 to 50% 1RM - that's a number off the top of my head, but people with a 400-500 lbs. DL have been using 100 and even 200 lbs for swings.

But as I said above, these are people who are substituting swings for speed day in their deadlift program, not substituting it for their heavy deadlift day.
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I guess both paragraphs are a problem for me, I don't deadlift anymore and my heaviest kettlebell is 48kg.
Would swinging a lighter bell with one hand give the same benefits regarding maintaining ones deadlift as swinging a heavier one?
 
Pressurechief said:
I guess both paragraphs are a problem for me, I don't deadlift anymore and my heaviest kettlebell is 48kg.
Would swinging a lighter bell with one hand give the same benefits regarding maintaining ones deadlift as swinging a heavier one?
Click to expand...

My experience in my own training and those I teach is once you're swinging a 32kg and up, it's very attainable to pull 315 with moderate effort at most
 
Mark Limbaga said:
You can build a strong lower back on a diet of heavy swings alone but if you have a barbell at your disposal, I would say why not deadlift??

You can enjoy both and they complement each other
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What is heavy?
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
The real question is, does everyone need to deadlift heavy? And the clear answer is no. Just, don't think that you aren't leaving something on the table. Leave it, and be ok with leaving it.

Just my opinion.
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These days, I like the ROI of heavy farmer's walks.

Using a trap bar, 4 reps of farmer's walks means 4 singles of deadlifts (picking it up) + petty long TUT from the carrying.

Has systemic metabolic effects like a heavy SQ or DL, but a little more distributed across the whole body than either the SQ or DL because you're walking.
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
A heavy deadlift requires full-body tension in a way that I do not think the swing does.
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I concur.

Also, one is a ballistic, the other isn't. You can't slow grind a swing.

For me, I find heavy swings more comparable to power cleans.

(Although power cleans have a kinetic impact factor on the catch and rack that swings don't)
 
Jamesjones said:
Has anyone else found kettlebell swings with a heavier bell a viable substitution for heavy deadlifting for lower back strength. My view is yes as my lower back feels far stronger than when powerlifting style deadlifting
Click to expand...

Here is the best way I can explain this. The lower back responds best to strength endurance and stability . Swings are a great tool but best for developing power, at heavier loads it i also a great strength endurance exercise, strengthening the surrounding muscles. The dead lift, is a great limit strength exercise which will develop a much stronger posterior chain but can also put a lot of stress on the lower back in the conventional dead lift. This isnt always a bad thing, as it takes stressors to stimulate adaptations( The book Anti Fragility explains this), but I find the best tool for the job to be loaded carries, as it provides the strength endurance and stability necessary. Its extremely natural to the body to pick up something heavy and move it from point A to point B, it is a moving plank as Gray Cook and others describe it.
 
Colby said:
Here is the best way I can explain this. The lower back responds best to strength endurance and stability . Swings are a great tool but best for developing power, at heavier loads it i also a great strength endurance exercise, strengthening the surrounding muscles. The dead lift, is a great limit strength exercise which will develop a much stronger posterior chain but can also put a lot of stress on the lower back in the conventional dead lift. This isnt always a bad thing, as it takes stressors to stimulate adaptations( The book Anti Fragility explains this), but I find the best tool for the job to be loaded carries, as it provides the strength endurance and stability necessary. Its extremely natural to the body to pick up something heavy and move it from point A to point B, it is a moving plank as Gray Cook and others describe it.
Click to expand...

+1

There is also a serious opportunity cost to heavy deadlifts in terms of recovery debt and impact on other training.

I don't find equivalent weight farmer's walks to nearly as taxing, although my hypotheses as to 'why' are fuzzy.

As a result, I've swapped in more farmer's walk for general 'back strengthening' (along with GMs/RDLs), and reserved my clean pulls for weight ranges closer to what I can clean and jerk, i.e. instead of DLing 1.5-2x bodyweight, I'll do clean pulls for 0.8-1.2x bodyweight.

Net result: I can keep my total training volume tonnage higher.
 
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