Kettlebell Is AGT right for mixed/long workouts?

[Marco Masoero]

Hi everyone, let me introduce myself, I'm Marco and I write from Italy.

Lately I've been training with a program I created with the specific intent of gradually increasing the weight of the kettlebell I use.

For this purpose I have created a 4 week program that encompasses all the movements that can be done with a Kettlebell, with a fairly high number of repetitions per workout.

Here is an example of a workout:

10 Series
10 Clean & Push Press Alternated
+
10 Two Arm Row

or:

10 Series
10 Clean + Back Lunges Alt
+
5 + 5 Windmill

or:

10 Series
5 + 5 Clean + Push Press + Windmill
+
5 Upright Row

In total there are 33 workouts and here you can see them all:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qAvS3vjuh0JYMX9vn4n90X6HT6dfaJt0c9w0ZqF2Q1c/edit?usp=sharing

All workouts consist of a main exercise of at least 100 repetitions and one or more accessory exercises and are almost always divided into 10 total series.

Between each series I make the necessary recovery to be able to do another complete series.

In this way, by training only with one kettlebell and in a relatively short time I was able to improve a lot so that in the next cycle, which I just started, I moved on to 28kg.

So far so good, except that I feel particularly cooked even if I have had days of recovery.

I feel drained like my nervous system is a little burned.

This is because I am keeping the runtimes pretty tight, and the 10 sets also get me up to 170 bpm.

Now according to Maffettone's number to stay in the AGT I should keep the heart rate below 136 (180 - 44, my age) and to do this I should no longer adjust to the time but to the heart rate and stop the series no longer at the end.

Now my question is, does it make sense to split total work by heart rate to stay in AGT regardless of the number of reps per set?

The goal would be to keep the same volume of work but not burn me.

Sorry for the length of the question but I had to give some context

Marco

 

[james_1127]

HR reading in regards to grinding type lifts are a poor indicator, the blood pressure raises to high etc...

I think if you want to use the HR as an indicator then use it for recovery before your next set, as opposes to keeping it within the MAF numbers... so say @65% HR I will start my next set...

IMO I think you have a lot going on here, with a ton of movements etc I like the general rule of 15-25 reps a workout for grind type movements... doing 100 reps of a main movement + 50+ of asst stuff seems like a lot of volume...

 

[Marco Masoero]

HR reading in regards to grinding type lifts are a poor indicator, the blood pressure raises to high etc...

I think if you want to use the HR as an indicator then use it for recovery before your next set, as opposes to keeping it within the MAF numbers... so say @65% HR I will start my next set...

IMO I think you have a lot going on here, with a ton of movements etc I like the general rule of 15-25 reps a workout for grind type movements... doing 100 reps of a main movement + 50+ of asst stuff seems like a lot of volume...

Hi James and thanks for replying!

Your point of view is very interesting.

As far as recovery is concerned, what you have suggested to me, I will already put it into practice, surely I wait for the heart rate to drop below 65% before starting again, this is how I have now calculated the breaks.

What I was interested in understanding was whether the same volume of work could be done without even going above 65% during the exercise (AGT) so as not to create too much acid waste which I believe is what makes me feel burned.

Your point of view on volume could also be the answer, maybe the total volume is too much even if in practice I train (only) with these workouts.

Another option could be to decrease the grinding type lifts for the benefit of accessory work or pure strength work while maintaining the same volume at workout.

The goal is to move better with the 28kg kettlebell and then move on to the 32kg kettlebell

Thanks!

 

[Anna C]

Now my question is, does it make sense to split total work by heart rate to stay in AGT regardless of the number of reps per set?

The goal would be to keep the same volume of work but not burn me.

I agree with @james_1127 that you could add more recovery between sets, so your HR comes down further.

I also think you could split the sets into more sets (or repeats, as we call them in A+A) and less reps per set, for the same total volume.

Try it and see how you feel afterwards! I'd be interested to hear.

The volume is the main driver of the desirable adaptations, IMO. So you are right to try to keep the same volume of work, if you can recover adequately from it.

If you find that you still don't recover well with those changes, then the volume might be a bit to much for you currently, relative to what you are adapted to. In that case, reduce the volume, or wave the volume. If you wave the volume (H/L/M days) you might have a high volume day or two in the week, but you'd have a rest day following it.

 

[Adachi]

Now my question is, does it make sense to split total work by heart rate to stay in AGT regardless of the number of reps per set?

The goal would be to keep the same volume of work but not burn me.

My short answer to your question:
Yes. it does make sense to use a heart rate monitor to guide your training
Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training

although I want to add a caveat:
the heart rate monitor does not know more about you than you do.

-----------

What I learned from simple and sinister is that I can calibrate my workout by squeezing and loosening the rest intervals. I have high regard for the talk test in Simple & Sinister. it is a low-tech, high-concept method of gauging whether enough rest is had.

What I discovered from a Grease the Groove style practice was that for strength development there's no such thing as too much rest.

what I learned from quick and the dead was that rigid timing can be used to obtain certain metabolic conditions.

-------------

if you seek pure strength development and power expression calibrate the heart rates in your program downward, and if you seek a conditioning aspect raise your target threshold a bit.

there is no perfect heart rate. all these ranges of work/rest periods have trade-offs.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

You got solid points already.

For AGT style training, it's better to keep reps on the lower end range, if you want to use 10 reps, rest longer and also be mindful of rep speed

 

[Adachi]

if you want to use 10 reps, rest longer

For example : the victor protocol
10 reps every 3 minutes. No less.
Very anti glycolytic

 

[Dayz]

I'm fairly sure there's quite a big difference between MAF and AGT protocols like A+A. You can't really mix them. MAF would be aerobic only, whereas sets of 5-10 with rest periods would be alactic + aerobic, so not MAF.

I think that's right? Maybe someone else can confirm

 

[Marco Masoero]

I also think you could split the sets into more sets (or repeats, as we call them in A+A) and less reps per set, for the same total volume.

Try it and see how you feel afterwards! I'd be interested to hear.

Thanks Anna! You got my point!

If you wave the volume (H/L/M days) you might have a high volume day or two in the week, but you'd have a rest day following it.

Also this one is surely one thing I can add to my program

My short answer to your question:
Yes. it does make sense to use a heart rate monitor to guide your training
Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training

Thanks Adachi!

What I discovered from a Grease the Groove style practice was that for strength development there's no such thing as too much rest.

This is definitely my priority even if the type of workout is not purely dedicated to strength the goal is to move on to the next weight each cycle!

You got solid points already.

For AGT style training, it's better to keep reps on the lower end range, if you want to use 10 reps, rest longer and also be mindful of rep speed

Thanks Mark! I'll try to split the ten reps to keep the same volume but to stay under 65% HR so maybe one example for the first workout i posted could be instead of:

10 Series
10 Clean & Push Press Alternated
+
10 Two Arm Row

Then rest

a better:

20 Sets of:

5 Clean & Push Press Right (if HR doesn't go up 65%)

Rest

5 Clean & Push Press Left (if HR doesn't go up 65%)

Rest

10 Two Arm Row

For example : the victor protocol
10 reps every 3 minutes. No less.
Very anti glycolytic

I can surely integrate this work/rest protocol

I'm fairly sure there's quite a big difference between MAF and AGT protocols like A+A. You can't really mix them. MAF would be aerobic only, whereas sets of 5-10 with rest periods would be alactic + aerobic, so not MAF.

I think that's right? Maybe someone else can confirm

Thanks! This is certainly a question that lies ahead of all the others, does it make sense to work in AGT with this type of workout?

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Thanks Anna! You got my point!

Also this one is surely one thing I can add to my program

Thanks Adachi!

This is definitely my priority even if the type of workout is not purely dedicated to strength the goal is to move on to the next weight each cycle!

Thanks Mark! I'll try to split the ten reps to keep the same volume but to stay under 65% HR so maybe one example for the first workout i posted could be instead of:

10 Series
10 Clean & Push Press Alternated
+
10 Two Arm Row

Then rest

a better:

20 Sets of:

5 Clean & Push Press Right (if HR doesn't go up 65%)

Rest

5 Clean & Push Press Left (if HR doesn't go up 65%)

Rest

10 Two Arm Row


I can surely integrate this work/rest protocol

Thanks! This is certainly a question that lies ahead of all the others, does it make sense to work in AGT with this type of workout?

I'd go for the alternating 5 rep clean and push press, 5 rows (alternate each minute)

rest every 5th minute

Then do 4-5 series of those .

 

[Anna C]

I'm fairly sure there's quite a big difference between MAF and AGT protocols like A+A. You can't really mix them. MAF would be aerobic only, whereas sets of 5-10 with rest periods would be alactic + aerobic, so not MAF.

I think that's right? Maybe someone else can confirm

I think time has shown that this is correct.

As the AGT protocols developed, one approach was the one described in the Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst article. But even the author (Al Ciampa) moved away from this strict HR guide after working with it for a while and evolving towards more time and body sensations to guide the session. The HR method still works and gets you in the ballpark, but it turned out to be not necessary to aim for MAF HR specifically. So, what you say is correct, that MAF is really developed for, and best suited for, traditional aerobic training.

 

[Marco Masoero]

I think time has shown that this is correct.

As the AGT protocols developed, one approach was the one described in the Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst article. But even the author (Al Ciampa) moved away from this strict HR guide after working with it for a while and evolving towards more time and body sensations to guide the session. The HR method still works and gets you in the ballpark, but it turned out to be not necessary to aim for MAF HR specifically. So, what you say is correct, that MAF is really developed for, and best suited for, traditional aerobic training.

So in your opinion, set splitting, more rest time bw/ sets and waving intensity (H/M/L workout well weekly distribuited), is still a good plan?

 

[Anna C]

So in your opinion, set splitting, more rest time bw/ sets and waving intensity (H/M/L workout well weekly distribuited), is still a good plan?

Yes, I think so!

I think, with this kind of work, what you want to watch out for is your body getting "cranky", as in little aches, pains, knotty muscles. You aren't as likely to feel that CNS fatigue feeling as with heavy deadlifts and squats. And you aren't as likely to feel that energy burnout hormonal disturbance type feeling as with metcons and other heavy glycolytic workouts, or even the overall body fatigue of a lot of aerobic endurance exercise. But if the volume of this semi-heavy repeat work is more than your body is adapted to and can recover from regularly, you'll start to feel that cranky feeling. Not sure how else to describe it, but I can say I've been there. And if you do feel it, all you have to do is add a little recovery or reduce the volume for a little while, then ramp back up.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I think there's a lot to be said for circuit training and potential CV growth and development, but Maffetone's numbers (and protocol) do not work well with circuit training (or circuit like complexes) imho, unless you are just going really light for really high reps.

 

[Marco Masoero]

Yes, I think so!

I think, with this kind of work, what you want to watch out for is your body getting "cranky", as in little aches, pains, knotty muscles. You aren't as likely to feel that CNS fatigue feeling as with heavy deadlifts and squats. And you aren't as likely to feel that energy burnout hormonal disturbance type feeling as with metcons and other heavy glycolytic workouts, or even the overall body fatigue of a lot of aerobic endurance exercise. But if the volume of this semi-heavy repeat work is more than your body is adapted to and can recover from regularly, you'll start to feel that cranky feeling. Not sure how else to describe it, but I can say I've been there. And if you do feel it, all you have to do is add a little recovery or reduce the volume for a little while, then ramp back up.

Let us know how it goes!

To tell the truth, I felt both the firing of the CNS and the fatigue of the metabolic conditioning, perhaps because for me the 28kg is an important weight and the heartbeats were high and for a long time, even 30/40 minutes with an average of 140.

I also have to admit that in week 4, the last one, I had to add more workouts to record for my online gym so the total volume was probably way too much.

Also at 44 years out of 4 weeks maybe one should recover anyway.

But I definitely want to try modulating intensity, splitting sets and increasing recovery, and I'll definitely let you know, thanks for the help!