Strong Endurance AGT and insulin sensitivity

[TimothyGander]

If keto gets you into fat burning mode, why would anyone need anything other than protein if one has weeks or months of energy around their waist that (with low insulin) they are now tapping?

Well, fasting does exist and is somewhat popular within keto cycles. However, you still need vitamins, micronutrients and so on, you aren't storing these around your waist. People who fast long term usually take supplements to avoid deficiencies.

Eating exclusively protein doesn't seem like a good or manageable idea anyway. Apparently, it can give you protein poisoning and it's apparently standard wilderness survival advice to not eat at all if extremely lean (i.e. mostly protein) meat is the only available food.

Also, insulin is not the only piece in the fat burning puzzle - ability of adipose cells to release fat and ability of other cells to effectively use it are also important. Supposedly dietary fat is more readily available and thus can "bridge" the gap between being carb-adapted and fully fat-adapted.

Another issue is the type of fat stored in the adipocytes. An overweight person who used to consume standard Western menu is likely to have a high percentage of stored PUFA, which oxidize easily and aren't good sources of energy. In that case keto diet containing monounsaturated and saturated fats would be a better approach, allowing the body not to get overwhelmed with processing the volatile PUFAs.

Lastly, many low-carb diets revolve around the concept of controlling hunger. It's far easier to restrict carbs while eating ad libitum than to fast or consciously restrict calories.

 

[ali]

Is there background to this question - ie insulin resistance, diabetes or other metabolic problems?
Is it a lifestyle thing or a medical problem?
Overeating a bit and being sedentary is one thing but fatty liver disease is another.

And what does insulin sensitivity mean in the context of exercise? Improving glucose uptake, is what I think is inferred - which as has been pointed out requires less insulin anyway due to non insulin dependent transporters. Using glucose for fuel requires less insulin - so being more active will burn the glucose you've just eaten. Walking after a meal is good for this. And by the way....using glucose for aerobic function is ABSOLUTELY NORMAL.

Energy balance is the target to aim for. Any diet that you can stick to and still have friends will do this.

Fruit and veg. Plenty of vitamins, minerals to provide the nutrition for your cells to work well.
A lot of people going for weight loss after a diet of never eating any fruit and veg anyway go on a low carb diet with no fruit and veg. If your waist line is expanded due to too many strawberries, then by all means cut them back a little. But it's not the strawberries, is it?

if you are carrying excess fat using IF/Keto/dietary protocols to improve insulin sensitivity is basically like trying to bail out a boat with a dish sponge when there is a giant fist size hole in the bottom of the boat.

Yes.

Outside of the diet wars and food fights, back to exercise....AGT.

Many here do AGT under a very loose definition which possibly has been hijacked or misinterpreted by low carb activists because it is 'anti-glycolytic' and that sounds a lot like 'anti-glucose'. Minimal use of glucose anyway. And yes, using glucose for fuel will make your cells more sensitive to glucose uptake but as you are trying to avoid it or minimal use anyway, it's not as glycolytic as Glycolytic training, as it were. And depleting glycogen stores which will make you more sensitive. And here is the double whammy of using AGT and low carb or restrictive diets - going to the extreme of keto. Ketogenesis down regulates the Glycolytic pathway - that's what it does. And people who do keto as a clinical application have metabolic issues which is the reason why it works for them because they have issues with glucose metabolism.

Any movement will improve glucose uptake. Some more than others. Walking - easy activity-moderate strength-moderate cardio-high intensity and long duration. A spectrum. AGT is in the middle.

Energy balance for weight loss/fat loss. Exercise for health including cardio metabolic health. No need to run yourself into the ground via 3 hours of CrossFit everyday in the same way that you don't need to do a 3 hour marathon everyday to improve glucose uptake.

If you have liver insulin resistance. Different ball game. Glycogen depleting sessions will be dangerous for you. Avoid hypos and see a specialist.

So yes anti-glycolytic training will improve glucose uptake but pro-glycolytic training will do it better. There is a flip side. There always is. No such thing as a free lunch.

I'm not anti AGT, by the way. I do a lot of it. You can do AGT and still use a boat load of glucose. The term is misleading but it was introduced at a time when there wasn't any beef with carbohydrates and no one had any need to enter the diet wars selling books about avocados.

 

[Eyetic]

Things got very technical very quickly.

Asking in this forum is always like this, you ask A and you will receive reply till the Z or beyond.

Feels like the Agora of the old greek world, where you merge philosophers, drs, amateurs, professionals...to debate and give their respectfull opinion. I Just Love it.

 

[JR47]

@mikhael I have a very strong relationship with my food

I am now at a comfortable point with my weight and lifestyle where I can go 14or16 hours fasted without a problem at all, and I am happy to vary the timing. basically, I drink 3 coffees with milk in the mornings (also lots of water). My aim to start eating at least 15 hours after my last meal. I aim to end eating by 8pm and often get it right. My feasting period now usually starts between 11am and 2pm. The timing is great because I get busy in the afternoons, so life pushes me past the 16 hour point once or twice a week. One thing remains from my early experiments: The moment I start eating, the flood gates are open. I can put off that first bite of the day but cannot stop eating until the day is over.

I started very hard back in 2016 or so. and aimed for a daily 18 fast, 6 feast. I have made every major life change with Cold Turkey approach. I cannot slip and slide into anything. So those ideas of "do it 1or2 times a week" do not work for me. DO or DO NOT.

Now, when I say feast: I MEAN IT! to this day, I try not to compromise on the quantity/quality/preference of my meals because I feel that I sacrifice enough already. Saying this, the majority of my meals have been really healthy since 2004 (I started Kung Fu then). I don't ever take sugar except in the tasteless breakfast cereals (wheetbix, cornflakes, bran, etc) and in the occasional cup of tea.

I'm a night eater, and cannot stand to sleep with a grumbling stomach. so in the early days, I ate from 4pm-midnight or so...I gave myself the leeway to go to 8 hours feast when I felt like it, or would have fallen off the bandwagon. HANGER from noon was a part of my life.
I eventually learnt to recognize hunger from greed/emotional eating/etc and my late night snacking gradually disappeared. I was never strict with myself about missing a dayor2, and the last 2 weeks of every December was usually an explosion of food because my birthday is in the same period. I always tried to be strict after the NYE celebration to recover, and often ran a 15km VERY HILLY race on the 2nd Sunday of Jan (the Wits Kudu 15km run in Johannesburg). I learnt from Kung Fu, and late-in-life academics that the effort of each day does not matter at all. It is the accumulative effort of weeks, months, and years which make the lasting difference.

I'm not sure if you include this in your window, but coffee with milk breaks a fast.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Does ATG training improve insulin sensitivity?

So yes anti-glycolytic training will improve glucose uptake but pro-glycolytic training will do it better.

 

[Pete L]

So it sounds like S&S would be close to perfect. Two or three days A+A style breath test repeats and glycotic Friday session with "S-" bell.
Should this be a blueprint for other training regimes as well then?
e.g.
2 days A+A
2 days LISS
1 day glycotic (for example RMF, The One, or other peaking type programme?)

 

[North Coast Miller]

So it sounds like S&S would be close to perfect. Two or three days A+A style breath test repeats and glycotic Friday session with "S-" bell.
Should this be a blueprint for other training regimes as well then?
e.g.
2 days A+A
2 days LISS
1 day glycotic (for example RMF, The One, or other peaking type programme?)

I think firstly you would look at similar interventions in terms of rest to work ratio etc to find if A&A is truly a low glycolytic utilization, and if one has genuine insulin resistance that is influenced by less than optimal FFM or some other reason that needs to be addressed by exercise dynamics.

If anything more than a moderate amount of exercise is warranted I'd be leaning toward 2-3 sessions of HIIT, assuming your A&A intervals really were not tapping into glucose reserves to any great extent. Really you kind of need to know what glucose depletion/metabolism dynamic is at play and make decision based on that an in conjunction with other benchmarks. How long does it takes for blood glucose levels to normalize both after training and after a high glycemic index snack.

 

[JR47]

snap @Eyetic said the same to me. Below is my response to both of you...including the lack of thanks



I'm now day 2 with black coffee 1st and maybe 2nd, then milk coffee 3rd and maybe 2nd. I seldom go to a 4th coffee in the day.

Simply trying to be informative. FYI, there is no such thing as a 'dirty' fast. There is just the fasting state (not taking in anything that causes insulin response) and the eating window.

But tell yourself whatever you want.

 

[JR47]

snap @Eyetic said the same to me. Below is my response to both of you...including the lack of thanks



I'm now day 2 with black coffee 1st and maybe 2nd, then milk coffee 3rd and maybe 2nd. I seldom go to a 4th coffee in the day.

PS - good luck with it

 

[JR47]

@JR47 I'm disrespectful to anyone who messes with my coffee and food sorry for my insolence when you guys are really helping me. I'll try 2 black coffees, then the 3rd milk one at +-15 hours.

now that i'm counting times+coffee. I think that I usually had:
coffee 1 at 11 hours
coffee 2 at 13 hours
coffee 3 at 15 hours (between 11 and noon)
give or take 30 minutes.

the flashy IF websites that I perused in the last 2 days mentioned a 'dirty fast' if you have <50cal e.g. milk with coffee. I agree with you hence I stopped this dirtiness

No doubt ;-) I am, likewise, ready to damage anyone who f*cks with my daily caffeine dose.

Don't know if you've checked out Dave Asprey's stuff? He has quite a few articles on 'Bulletproof fasting' (I.e fasting after butter coffee). Terminology nonwithstanding, (and, even if you don't like butter coffee), there may be some stuff in there that you could use.

We are all on the same path. And we all need caffeine. Nuff said ;-)