Kettlebell Audrey Burgio - 125 reps in 6 min!
- Thread starter John K
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randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
Apologies to the OP for getting even more off topic…The USAW level 1 course was (at least until recently) both an intro to coaching the sport of WLing, but also intended as a foundational course for using the power versions of the quick lifts for sports performance. Back in the mid 2000s there was a dedicated sports performance coaching course, but USAW retired and combined it with what was formerly known as the Club Coach course to make the current course. Too bad, I think. As for fitness, as Franco Colombu once quipped about bodybuilding, there are easier ways to say in shape than wling training; “fit for what” / “conditioned for what” still defines those things. The highest level elites in countries with state supported programs train over 40 hrs a week and have staggering annual training tonnages. It takes years of progressive loading and “work hardening” / conditioning to get to that level though. There’s an undeniable association between progressing annual tonnage and climbing the qualification ranks from beginner to international elite. The USAW curriculum, having taught it off and on over the last couple of decades, is totally lacking in how to progress an athlete and we have no qualification system which correlates to meet results/total or training tonnage whatsoever. Program Strong which was derived from Soviet era weightlifting sports science on how to organize volume and intensity effectively for non-weightlifting exercises, if folded into the actual SF weightlifting curriculum would be a great service to weightlifting coaches and for sports performance coaches alike.
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rwleonard
Level 7 Valued Member
The reasons for differences seem pretty staright forward (i.e., not gobblygooky).
The point of HS snatching is to generate as much power as possible, so you can use it to do things like rapidly and deeply deplete your alactic energy system with it. The point of GS style snatching is to use as little power as possible to be able to put up more reps.
While there is cerainly overlap in the "effects" of the two styles, they are optimized for different goals. When one is learning to snatch, one just as well learn a style which best supports the reasons one wanted to learn the snatch in the first place. No?
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So, I keep thinking about this whole "strength has a greater purpose" thing, @Anna C and @Steve Freides and @silveraw ...
Like, sure, I train because I enjoy it and I couldn’t imagine not training at this point.
I train because it keeps me more mentally healthy. It burns off the "anxious energy" and calms me down and makes me a less angry person.
I train because I don’t want to be decrepit and and an invalid when I’m older. I used to want to die young because I saw how people around me got as they got older and I didn't want that to be me. I realized much later that you didn't HAVE to age like that.
I train so I can maintain and build as much physical capacity so I can enjoy life, my family, and outdoor "hobbies" like backpacking, kayaking, and hunting.
But ... I think that some training styles are more or less conducive to that, and that with my desires it is going to push me to include things (like cardio!).
But that really doesn’t limit the “buffet” of training all that much. It might mean I train more like a decathalete and less like a powerlifter (good at multiple things and not just one), but it wouldn’t tell me to squat Westside low bar wide stance or Olympic high bar narrow stance - or in this context, whether I should or shouldn't snatch GS or HS. I could see it mean I don't pick a "competitive" weightlifting or powerlifting program, as those may be "too specific" but it wouldn't mean I couldn't also engage in weightlifting or powerlifting - just that the program would be different. Similar with GS.
Like, sure, I train because I enjoy it and I couldn’t imagine not training at this point.
I train because it keeps me more mentally healthy. It burns off the "anxious energy" and calms me down and makes me a less angry person.
I train because I don’t want to be decrepit and and an invalid when I’m older. I used to want to die young because I saw how people around me got as they got older and I didn't want that to be me. I realized much later that you didn't HAVE to age like that.
I train so I can maintain and build as much physical capacity so I can enjoy life, my family, and outdoor "hobbies" like backpacking, kayaking, and hunting.
But ... I think that some training styles are more or less conducive to that, and that with my desires it is going to push me to include things (like cardio!).
But that really doesn’t limit the “buffet” of training all that much. It might mean I train more like a decathalete and less like a powerlifter (good at multiple things and not just one), but it wouldn’t tell me to squat Westside low bar wide stance or Olympic high bar narrow stance - or in this context, whether I should or shouldn't snatch GS or HS. I could see it mean I don't pick a "competitive" weightlifting or powerlifting program, as those may be "too specific" but it wouldn't mean I couldn't also engage in weightlifting or powerlifting - just that the program would be different. Similar with GS.
randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
It was, back in the day, considered good hard style technique to shift rearwards slightly to accelerate the bell upward, then “tame the arc” (Rob Lawrence) and then “lean into the bell” forward slightly at lockout. Dropping the bell, one leaned away slightly which kept the bell closer to CoG and facilitated delaying the hip hinge. If one is after power production, then a more vertical bell path will necessarily be more powerful and faster; displacing the body slightly aft to accelerate the bell then fore to lock out accomplishes that without unnecessary arm involvement. One of my master aged KB sport heroes Fedor Fuglev who was still an elite sport competitor at the time in training put up a staggering 300 legal reps in 10 minutes one hand switch 24kg…a very different almost hard style technique, lots of leg drive, not much swing and really like a “clean that ends up overhead” (with anatomical breath match appropriate to the sport: double breath at top and bottom…sounds like a locomotive!) Sport technique is somewhat flexible though and that is by design. You will see from time to time a variety of different approaches in one set as it progresses and a lifter tires and the grip is giving out..Johnny Benidze, an elite russian, would be doing squat snatches by the end of his set because he couldn’t pull the bell any harder or higher and still hang onto it. (and maybe a little showmanship…maybe) It takes a lot of training and a lot of reps to be good at the sport, but rather than call the sport technique “tricks” as some have, it’s more along the lines of problem solving to accomplish a particular end and that is an individual process.
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BrianCF
Level 7 Valued Member
I love watching these mutants. Other worldy.
Neuro-Bob
Level 10 Valued Member
Fascinating thread.
I think StrongFirst's snatch, for simplicity and continuity of teaching, carries over the hardstyle swing and hardstyle clean standards/techniques to the snatch. Is it the best way? Depends. Is it the only way? Definitely not.
Sometimes as variations are seen, it confuses newbies who don't know which standards of technique are important to maintain. Then when we try to explain that "we don't' do it that way" it sometimes comes off as "our way is better" or "another way is wrong" when maybe neither of those things are true or intended.
I know this part is about weightlifting, but I tend to think this is revealing about GS / kettlebell sport style of kettlebell lifting, too. The results that GS athletes attain -- not just in competition performance but in body composition, muscle development, strength, power, endurance, and other qualities -- are quite amazing. But I would say these qualities are more a result of volume than technique. (Which then begs the question, does the technique enable the volume? Not just the volume in a set, but the overall volume/tonnage in a week/month/cycle? Maybe so. But that's another level of discussion.)
Good point and I think some of the higher level hardstyle snatch practitioners have figured this out (Harald Motz comes to mind) even if they start with a more standard StrongFirst style.
I think StrongFirst's snatch, for simplicity and continuity of teaching, carries over the hardstyle swing and hardstyle clean standards/techniques to the snatch. Is it the best way? Depends. Is it the only way? Definitely not.
Sometimes as variations are seen, it confuses newbies who don't know which standards of technique are important to maintain. Then when we try to explain that "we don't' do it that way" it sometimes comes off as "our way is better" or "another way is wrong" when maybe neither of those things are true or intended.
WhatWouldHulkDo
Level 8 Valued Member
On that note, probably have to be careful here using the term "higher" purpose, when what you mean is something akin to "generalized" purpose.
Well, I think it means both (see Pavel's article quoted above, quoted below) but I understand it can sound... snooty. And that's not a purpose any of us really want to serve.
KennyT
Level 3 Valued Member
Steve, her last name is spelled Burgio. Possible to correct the title?
Alan Mackey
Level 7 Valued Member
Hardstyle technique (what RKC and SF teach) is about making the exercise as inefficient as possible... on purpose, as a method to develop certain qualities.
Girevoy sport style is all about efficiency. The one and only goal is completing as much reps as humanly possible within a specific timeframe.
Apples and oranges.
Neuro-Bob
Level 10 Valued Member
In short what I see in videos like this is an amazing fit/strong person do awesome things that I could only dream of at this point. Kudos to all.
A thought struck my head as this technique debate develops…..a simplification could be that hardstyle technique is about the effect the lift will have on the human body, and GS technique is about the effect the lift will have on the weight. “Make me strong” versus “get that thing moving for a long time.”
An oversimplification but I had to put it out there.
A thought struck my head as this technique debate develops…..a simplification could be that hardstyle technique is about the effect the lift will have on the human body, and GS technique is about the effect the lift will have on the weight. “Make me strong” versus “get that thing moving for a long time.”
An oversimplification but I had to put it out there.
klk
Level 2 Valued Member
thanks for this. i'd developed this pattern after watching tons of GS video partly as a way of makin things easier for a slightly hinky shoulder. good to hear it isn't hopelessly heterodox.
what's with Fuglev's head bend at the top of each snatch? taking pressure off the nerve? relaxing the neck/trap?
I think Pavel's article, which dates to shortly after StrongFirst was created, hits the nail on the head - the meaning is clear, nothing religious about it, and no dragons have reared their heads in response.
Ubi fumus est, illic speramus barbeque.
-S-
randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
Hard to say, but I am guessing it is one of those idiosyncratic things you will see between individuals executing any sport movement. Conjecture here, but amongst some of the old school Eastern European weightlifting coaches, throwing the head back (an adult male head goes about + - 5kg on average) they thought, would added some extra reactive vertical impetus to the bar. 4 time Olympic medalist Dimas threw his back violently. Not really recommended and for beginners imitating his form, not fundamental to a successful technique: just not the right, most important thing to focus on. Fedor is cranking on that bell, so his head movement might be an intentional form fine point, it might be counterbalancing unconsciously , but I doubt he was coached to do it that way, just something he arrived at over time.
randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
Of course form matters. Do sprinters train and run differently than marathoners? Do track cyclists train and ride differently than gran tour riders? Without going down a whole rabbit hole here, endurance athletes do speed work and sprinters do some conditioning work. Genetics play a huge roll Elite marathoners tend to be ectomorphs, and you wont see any gran tour riders (also ectomorphs) built like track rider (mega mesomorph ) "quadzilla" Forstemann and vice versa.
Now having said that, elite endurance athletes, while not sprinter fast are still very fast people who have trained and taught their bodies to hold speed for long periods of time. (One of my good friends here in Boulder is at 38 years old a top USA female marathoner for the last 4 years, her event in college was 3k steeple. It took her a little awhile to get to the marathon distance "at speed.") Eliud Kipchoge's 2:01 Berlin Marathon saw him rolling at consecutive 28 min and change 10k splits...only about 2 minutes slower than world record for single 10k and 1 minute slower than the current NCAA 10k record. To put in perspective that's 4:37 ish per mile for 26.2 mi.
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