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Old Forum C&P Ladder Help

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NCmedic

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Hey guys,

I've been working on the C&P ladders at 28 kg in the style of the ROP. I started a month ago with a heavy, light, medium template...

My first week started at 3x 1,2,3 for heavy. 5x1, for light; 5x 1,2 for medium. I was able to work up to 5x 1,2,3 with no problems.

I felt comfortable with the 30 reps on the heavy day so I decided to begin ladders of 4.

Week 3: 1x 1,2,3,4 ... 4x 1,2,3. I struggled but was able to complete it. Light day increased to 5x 1,2 and the medium became 5x 1,2,3.I barely survived this medium workout.

Since I struggled, I decided to repeat the week instead of trying to progress with poor form. I was barely able to complete the medium day and was unable to complete all the reps for the heavy day for this week. (Week 4).

I'm not sure if it is the overall workload that is making it more difficult or if it is the set of 4 causing more fatigue. The workload went from 30,5,15 (50 total reps a week) to 34,15,30 (79 reps a week).

Just curious as to what you guys would do for the next few weeks. Should I back off and go back to the ladders of 3? 30,5,15... until I can comfortably finish the round of 30? Or should I keep my heavy day at 30 and increase the light and medium days to adjust to the overall volume for the week?

 
 
I also forgot to mention. The last two weeks also saw a progression in my TGUs. I've been doing 2-3 sets out of 5 of 32 kg TGUs, I personally don't feel that this is causing an issue but figured I'd mention it.
 
I am no expert, but I have done the RoP up to the 32kg, still have not gotten to a half bodyweight press.

That said -

1.) How much time between rungs are you taking? Use as much as needed, five plus minutes is not a bad thing. I'd take over 90 minutes sometimes to complete the ladders near the end of the cycle.

2.) How is your recovery? Are you eating and sleeping enough? Heavy press ladders take a lot out of you and you need to recover as strong as you lift.

3.)Adding heavy TGUs to an already heavy load from the RoP might be more than you can handle. Choose one goal and pursue it. If you want to achieve the RoP with the 28kg then drop the heavy TGU. On the optional variety days do some light TGU for mobility work or just some stretching/yoga. Or do a few specialized presses as mentioned in the supplements - bottoms up press, long push press. As you continue to add volume be prepared to reduce your activity on the variety days or even drop them as needed.

The RoP with its light, medium and heavy days along with two optional variety days is one of the best programs that I've ever followed. The key for me anyway was to keep it simple and just follow the basics without trying to add more cool stuff. It took me from not being able to press the 32kg even once to completing the full five rungs of the five ladders with the 32kg.
 
1. I wait till I feel rested enough to perform the next set of reps. I haven't actually mapped it out to an exact time frame.

2. I eat enough but sleep has been an issue unfortunately. I average about 7 hours, less when I go to work. (6.5 hours)

3. I figured somebody would say this! I think I may be trying to do too much although it doesn't feel that way. I never feel "sore" or tired after doing TGUs.

Do you think I should back off of the variable days and retry the ladder of 4 or go completely back to ladders of 3 until I've successfully completed it again?
 
I has similar issues with ROP with the 28kg.

There are a few options:

You could stick with ladders to 3 for a few more weeks, then try to four again.

You could go back to the 24kg, making sure you own each of the 75 reps.

Or you could work with double 24's, for a few months then try 28kg again
 
I thought about going back to the 24 and redoing the ladders of 5. I moved pretty quickly to 28kg when I probably should've been more patient and owned it like you said.

When I tested the 28 i hit 5 reps with both arms. I can hit 5 reps with 32s with my right... so the 24 feels way too easy with my right arm. I guess I was rushing to get my left arm caught up
 
Tyler, perhaps 28 kg is just too heavy for your for the ROP.  I do not counsel starting the ROP with a 5-rep max weight.   To me, 8-10 rep max is about right.

An in-between option that I've suggested here before might be worth a try for you.  Start each ladder with 28 kg x 1, finish each ladder with the 24 kg.  Based on how you feel, you could do 28 kg x 1, 2, 24 kg x 3, and later on, you might even try 28 kg x 1, 2, 3, and 24 kg x 4, 5.

Go by feel, learn to predict what will and won't go, and how to stay away from the bleeding edge of failure.   Adjust individual ladders as needed, e.g., if you are doing 28 x 1, 2 but that starts to feel hard, then switch to the 24 for the rung of 2 reps for the rest of the workout.

ROP from the beginning, week 1 as (28 x 1, 2 and 24 x 3) and do that up to 5 times, even on week #1, if you feel you can handle it.  Adjust as needed based on your good judgement, finish the program, and see where you're at when you're done.

-S-
 
Steve -- I like that idea a lot. It would allow me to continue working on the 28 kg while working on technique and getting more reps in with the 24 without pushing me past my limit. I've noticed that the reps of three are what give me the most trouble. Especially for ladders 4 and 5.

I think this would also let me continue simple and sinister on variable days without overdoing it.
 
Tyler, let us know how it works out for you.

Never forget that the ROP is based on using a weight appropriate to lots of volume, and lots of volume is the biggest reason it works as well as it does.  Always choose to get the reps in over using a heavier weight.  If the weight is light, try tightening up your form, e.g., allow less wiggle under the weight, have a tighter rack position before you press, try bringing your feet closer together as you rack the bell because this prevents leaning back, etc.

Best of luck to you.

-S-
 
Your medium day was your heavy day not long ago --push the hard day and use the other days as back-off/practice rather than  be concerned  with absolute reps through the week.

Use the 28 kg  and do the higher reps first--start with one ladder--1x(4,3,2,1) working up to 1x(5,4,3,2,1).Build up to 3x(5,4,3,2,1) or even 3x(5,3,2).When you can do this,complete it for 3 consecutive workouts then increase the weight and drop down to either singles or low ladders(2,1) etc...From my own experience,I did better with less volume and doing the reps in descending order.At a bodyweight of 175,I pressed the 40kg 6x with good form--wont win me any medals but not bad either.Good luck

 
 
Alot of great advice on this thread. I really appreciate it guys.

I've been pondering this all day and have narrowed it down to:

1) Return to 24 kg ladders of 5 and own it with perfect form. I feel that I rushed through this and as soon as I maxed out at 5x 1,2,3,4,5 I tested with the 28 kg and hit the 5 reps recommended by Pavel in ETK to begin ladders with the 28 kg. As I said, with my right arm, I can easily do 8-10 reps with the 28 kg. With my left, I max out at 5 reps... and that's with questionable form. I moved quickly into the in-between weight hoping to reach 32 kg faster. I know that lack of patience is the number one reason novices don't achieve their goals so I'm trying to avoid this.

2) Takes Steve's advice and start next week with 5x 1,2 with 28 kg and 3 with 24 kg. I would also do the light and medium day with the 28 kg as well. Taking a more custom (feel) approach. If I sense that the form is getting questionable, switch to 24 kg and get it done.

Personally, my gut says to go back to the 24 kg and smooth out the technique on the clean and the press while using the high volume to build up strength until I can hit the 8-10 range recommended by Steve. If I took a month to rep ladders of 5 with good technique, I may see more improvement than barely surviving ladders of 3 with 28 kg,

I'll be sure to keep yall posted!
 
Tyler, the ROP is a complete program and I would start less than 5 ladders to 5 - anyone could burn out on that sort of volume.  Take it easy, start with ladder to 3 - 28 x 1, 28 x 2, 24 x 3  - on your first heavy day.  If you're feeling really good, do 4 or 5 ladders instead of the recommended 3, and if you get 5 ladders to 3, then you can move up a rung and do some ladders to 4 on the following week's heavy day.

Another choice is to combine your two stated goals and do ladders that start with 28 x 1 and then finish with all 24's but again, cycle back the volume for now and let it build up again.

-S-
 
Steve -- took your advice today and did 5 ladders to 3-- 28 x 1, 28 x 2 and 24 x 3.

In my opinion it went great, Towards the end I struggled with the 28 x 2 but it was never to the point where form became questionable or I couldn't complete the rep. Just the right amount of difficulty. The reps of 3 with the 24 added more volume and I could feel the benefit of it towards the end as well.

I'll finish up the week with light on Wednesday (5x1 with 28) and medium on Friday (5x 1,2 with 28). I'll move up to ladders of 4 next week and continue using the 24 for rungs of 3 and 4.
 
Tyler, sounds good.

Please continue to abide by the spirit of the program.  If that means medium day is 1 x 28 and 2 x 24, that's perfectly fine.

Keep us posted on your progress once a week or so.

-S-
 
I always found that to be the hardest part of ROP -- as soon as you add even one rung of 4 on heavy day, your medium day jumps up to be the previous week's heavy day and weekly volume goes up by 29 reps.  It's even more pronounced when you break into the rung of 5 and your medium day alone jumps from 30 to 50 reps.  I have found that it helps to "feather" the medium day volume increase over a couple weeks rather than having it all hit in the same week.
 
Matt, I'm sure Pavel will correct me if I'm wrong about this, but that "volume shock" is part of the design of the program.  There are many disadvantages to using a constant weight for three months, and that kind of shock makes the program more effective.

I don't think anything heavier than about an 8RM is right for an intermediate or advanced trainee, and if you've selected your weight correctly, the shock of the increased volume should be perfectly doable.  No one says it will be especially pleasant, but neither should it take you to the bleeding edge of failure on your medium day.

-S-
 
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