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Old Forum Convict Conditioning Veterano rountine?

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Quicksilver02181987

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I was wondering if anyone here could please give me some insight as to if this routine/method actually produces results and just what kind of results are they? I mean your doing something for 6 days a week but your only performing the move once during those six days. Anyone gain from this? Thanks
 
This has been discussed extensively on the forum of dragondoor, the book's publisher (www.dragondoor.com). A search function there will turn up loads.

My two cents? It's a pretty crappy program, and you could do a lot better, whether your goal is bodyweight or a more holistic strength approach.
 
I want to get stronger overall and at least get some of what I had in High School back. Also I want to increase my endurance as well.
 
I could list off the reasons alphabetically or by principle but to save time I'll just point out the really big elephants in the room and others can fill out their problems with it if they feel like responding.

- If your goal was to pull a 2.5x bodyweight deadlift and you can already pull your bodyweight with good form; would you start your training out by working up to lifting a pencil 40 times and then maybe move on to a broom in a month or two?  Who knows, you could even start working with a real barbell in about a year if you work hard and meet the progression standards without jumping the gun and training near your initial baseline.

- One of the biggest claims is that "tendons need conditioning too."  True, but that will happen anyways with real training.  No real danger here when using proper form seeing that tendons are two to three times stronger than the muscles they're connected to and way stronger than bone.

- Without accountability most people can't stick with something for longer than six weeks.  How is it a good idea to set an action plan that could take years or even decades of consistent working out when one can safely achieve incredible strength gains in a few months with proper programing and consistent training?

- In order for me to do a one-arm-handstand-pushup I'd need to posses the strength to press two Beasts (106# kettlebells) with one arm.  Bodyweight movements just aren't adjustable enough to reach that kind of ability.  I just pressed a 36kg (80lb) bell for a PR the other day and I got there by working my press (the goal movement I'm shooting for) and moving up 4kg at a time.  I can do handstand pushups, but going for anything harder I'd make more effective gains with a different modality like a barbell or kettlebell.

- Everything works for 6 weeks.  This book derailed my training for a long time.  Did I add an inch to my chest with incline pushups? Yup. Did they make me stronger? Not hardly.  Even doing the program and starting out with what you can already do (i.e. the alleged "dumb way") you aren't practicing the movements consistently enough to get good at them.  If you want to get good at pullups, do a lot of pullups, then add some weight and build from there.  If you want to get good at one arm pushups, do a lot of one arm pushups, just make them easier by doing them inclined and gradually working your way down to parallel.

 

If your really want to know what solid training can do for you then stick around here, follow a good program like Enter the Kettlebell or Naked Warrior (if you're going the bodyweight training route I can't recommend it highly enough) and don't be surprised if you find yourself improving in areas you haven't been training.  I hope this helps you and doesn't sound condescending.  The book has a few really solid principles and a lot of really terrible ones.  If you follow and begin to understand a proven path you'll be able to answer this question yourself with time.  Whatever you do, do it often and do it well.
 
I like the exercises presented in Convict Conditioning and a lot of the progressions but don't care much for the programming. If you wanted to more-or-less follow the progressions from the CC book, what would be a good way to program it?

I've seen workouts that are divided into "workout A" and "workout B" and you alternate between them. With only 6 exercises in CC, would something like that work?
 
Connor covered a lot of it; I have some other objections as well, but that's more than enough.

Don't know what you had in high school (did you play any sports?) or where you are relative to that, but if you want to get strong, I would recommend you either

a) do pttp until you can pull somewhere between 2 and 2.5 bw deadlift and press bw, or bench 1.5 bw

b) do the PM until you're doing getups and swings with the 48kg bell

c) follow a good powerlifting plan

d) get a weightlifting coach and work up to a bodyweight snatch and 1.5 clean & jerk

e) if you want to get really strong using bodyweight only, are super disciplined, not thin-skinned, and have some money and a good amount of free time, and no desire to do any other sport, contact Ido Portal.

Get strong first; the above numbers are  very achievable for anyone in a reasonably short period of time if you pick a good plan and follow it. Then, work on any other physical qualities (endurance, etc) that you so choose.
 
@jason  - 'b' sounds like a great goal. Out of interest, have you found the best approach is to stick with pm as written until hittng the 48kg, or to cycle with other programs?
 
David, if I had to choose one goal for everyone, it would probably be "b"; they're all doable, and most everyone can accomplish more than one, but I really think for most people, that's probably the best all-around one. Be warned, the following is going to be long, feel free to just go with "yes, just do the PM" as your answer; remember too, sometimes it's okay to make the PM a 5 or 6 day program; Pavel has a great 5 day variation that's been posted.

Regarding your question, in my experience, the answer is "it depends". It is absolutely achievable by just doing the PM as written continuously, whether that's the best or fastest (not always the same thing) path to the goal depends on the individual, but it will definitely work, and would be my default recommendation.  I will say that I have a few different approaches to progressing with swings that expand upon what's written in ETK, but in my opinion, complement rather than contradict. For instance, double swings sometimes fit in here. Here are some the things I take into consideration with individuals that I've worked with; this is more about when and why I add to the PM, because it's easier for me to conceptualize, but the same basic reasoning and process applies to whether I advise people to cycle programs or not:

a) What other physical activities and sports do they do? I ask this for a few reasons:

1. How much do they have to recover from (and, what's their recovery ability)?

2. Where does this fit in to their overall life?

3. Are there other movement patterns or skills or qualities we want/need to address? Be careful with this though, as it is really easy to go way overboard and clutter up the PM to the detriment of the program. Remember, as Dan John says, "the goal is to keep the goal the goal"

b) What other resources are available to them?

Deadlifts can be a great addition to the PM, so can pull-ups. If someone doesn't have access to a barbell, there's no point in me recommending them. Ditto if they can't reliably get to a pullup bar. Seems simple, I know, but this seems to get ignored/argued about a lot on forums.  Work with the tools available.

c) What's their interest, and what do they have fun with?

This is an important one, that often gets ignored.  People will be a lot more motivated, and often get more out of, things they enjoy doing. This could be expanded on a lot, but suffice it to say, if there's not some serious goal, like making the olympics, or making a living as an athlete, fun is important, imho.

d) Which is harder/what are their weak points?

Some people come to me with a background that's going to predispose them towards get ups more, and will progress faster on these, others will pick up the swing a lot faster and progress more easily with that. I could write a very long post just on this.  Preferences are fine, but I like people to not have too much distance between proficiency in both, so if they're doing getups with 32kg for time and struggling with swings with a 16, something's off. If I'm going to supplement the PM with something (and at the risk of repeating myself, I don't always by ay means do so), I look at what can I do that will bring up the weaker half without compromising the stronger half.

e) Look outside the box:

While I will often use things that would be familiar to all of us (e.g. deadlifts, pullups and other bodyweight exercises, goblet squats etc) or variations, often times I find the best thing that a lot of people can add is either a good qigong or yoga practice (and I emphasize good, as there are a lot of terrible teachers of both, just as there is Jillian Michaels in the kettlebell world) and/or a meditation practice (I'm partial to a couple of approaches in particular here). There's a lot of ways in which that can be of tremendous benefit to a lot of folks in the strength training world, and I find they are often missing.

Hope that's of some help, remember, it's also fine and wonderful to just do the PM as written!
 
Thanks for the comprehensive reply! I'm doing get ups with a 24kg and 1h swings with a 32 kg, alongside panels fighter pull up program so have some way to go to get to a 48kg. However I'm enjoying the flexibility of the pm so will keep going, and your suggestion seems like a fine goal. I'll think about putting in double swings when the time is right. By the way, it's appreciated how much  good advice you and others give on this site!
 
btw, I've never tried it but the idea of 2 weeks blocks of PM and PTTP sounds freakishly tempting to me.
 
I sort of shiver every time I see "Convict Conditioning" in a thread title. Why? Well, because I watched the other forum get overrun in an amazingly short period of time by CC devotees and the "New Thread-itis" that reading that book seems to cause. The forum went from a fairly useful place to talk about strength training to "all CC, all the time" so fast it made my head spin.  As near as I could tell, not one person made noteworthy progress following those progressions, but they defend them like junkyard dogs. The discussion endlessly revolved around fine-tuning, clarifying, and asking about substitutions rather than success stories. I always suspected this was because no one was getting anywhere. The back cover of the book said we'd get "elevator cable legs" and "slabs of beef" on our backs and a year later none of that has shown up, so we must be doing it wrong. But never mind,  Convict Conditioning II is just around the corner!! Let's start a countdown thread where we can exchange rumors about its release date and which online retailer will put together the best bundle of Convict Conditioning II book, Convict Conditioning II keychain, and embossed leatherette Convict Conditioning II training log with the secret URL for the Members-Only Coach Wade Underground Society site.
 
I just now re-read Convict Conditioning and found its progressions to be decent. However reading the Naked Warrior section in Beyond Bodybuilding I found much more productive routines, namely the old favorite of the ladder.

What with military service the likelihood that I would be in austere locations that lack gyms is quite high I have paid a lot of attention to body weight training.

My A/B pattern of sessions looks like this:

Session A: all exercises are done in a circuit performed in a ladder

Pushups

Pullups

Squats

Notes: I'd practice more challenging variants at the start of training, or do a couple attempts at them.

Session B: Performed in a circuit

Leg Raises- Ladder

Bridges

Wall Headstands

For numbers I'd use my most recent APFT for push-ups, my last TSC results for pull-ups, and for squats I'd use the first session in a competitive ladder format to figure out my progression for working ladders.
 
I wrote up a GTG approach to it a while back inside here:

http://www.strongfirst.com/topic/cc-with-grease-the-groove/
 
Hey here is another question, what do you people think of Body By Science and doing it with free weights? This is just something I'm thinking about here.
 
Body By Science is a retread of the Nautilus High Intensity Training (HIT) of years past.  Here is a great article by Master Instructor Dan John that puts HIT in context: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/nautilus_crossfit_and_hihi

 
 
Quick Silver:  It is not a garbage workout if it aligns with your goals and works for you.  In my humble opinion, the barbell complex is not bad at all (though I would suggest adding hinge movement).  The author claims the workout is 12 minutes long but really with rests it would work out to be about  30-40 minutes I think.

I'm not sure about the ultra-slow reps to failure, and one workout every 5-10 days, this is HIT territory.  Probably give you a lot of muscle soreness which does not necessarily equate to strength gains.  I have never tried this program as written but in general I find my body responds better to a higher volume of work per week spread out across the week without pushing to failure.

You could do more sets per session and more sessions per week and get somewhere good with that barbell complex, but I would suggest just picking another program that has shown sound results for many people and doing it as written.

It is important to define where you are and where you want to go with your training before selecting a program.  If you can't articulate that I'd suggest reading Dan John's book Intervention.

Best,

Chris

 
 
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