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Old Forum ETK PM to S&S transition question

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Abdul-Rasheed

Abdul-Rasheed

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Hi All,

Just to give a background about me. I am 41 years old. Weight 188lb Height 6'1. I picked up doing kettlebells around 2 months back. Started with ETK PM (didn't know about StringFirst at that time). I want to switch to S&S but I'd like to give ETK PM its due before I do so.

This is how my program looks like, 2 or 3 times a week.

Warm up: Dynamic stretches for 2-3 mins, cycles of all squats, halos, and pump stretches for 10 minutes.

Main:

Two-handed swings with 32lb for 15 mins. 2 mins rest between sets.

5-10 mins rest

TGUs with 32lb, 5 times each side for about 5-10 mins.

Practice cleans for a few mins.

Static stretches for 2-3 mins.

Currently I do 5-6 sets of 20-25 reps of doubled-handed swings. My form suffers towards the end. It feels more like a cardio and I am out of breadth at the end of the swings. I am doing well with TGUs and I am enjoying it a lot.

Questions:

1. What would you say a reasonable progression standard for both swings and TGUs (in terms of weight or volume or sets or reps) that I should I aim to attain. It wasn't clear to me from ETK book. What would be that progression standard that prepares me to switch to S&S.

2. When do I try to switch to one-handed swings?

3. When do I try to do alternate one-handed swings?

I hope my questions are clear. Your tips are much appreciated.
 
S&S is essentially is a revised PM.  It would be better to follow that if you want to continue with swings and getups.
 
Travis, thanks. I have already received that advice here a few days back. I do want to and will move to S&S. I think it is Dan John who said something about  people jumping from one program to another without really doing any justice to the first one. I thought my post is about something different or at least that was my intention; may be it wasn't clear. I didn't want to abandon ETK PM without reaching a "level" and just wanted to know what that "level" is if there is one. Unless what you are saying is all I am asking is answered in the S&S book.
 
Hi Abdul, since S&S is a revised ETK PM, youre not so much switching programs - rather, with S&S, you are using a more efficient version of the PM program.  But ultimately it is your choice ETK PM is great, S&S is better - both will serve you well.  To get to your specific question, S&S notes that once you are comfortable doing 100, 2 handed swings in sets of 10 with the 24kg bell, begin working in single hand swings.  if you are finding that your form is breaking down when doing swings in a higher rep range in your current program, then drop the reps to the point where your form does not suffer AT ALL, don't do any forced or bad reps.  the key at this stage is proper form, really focus there and also, if you can do 20 swings with great form, then step the weight up and see if you can do 10 good solid reps with a bigger bell - always keep in mind that this is a strength building program, so you want to move the weight up when you can, without a breakdown in form.  if you choose to use the ETK PM outline for TGUs you're essentially going to come up in the same rep range as is outlined in S&S - you'll get anywhere from 4 to 7 per side in the 12 minute range given in the PM, verses the 5 per side recommended in S&S, 6 of one, 1/2 doz of the other, but you should go back and forth switching sides after each rep, instead of doing multiple getups on the left before switching to the right.  as far as single hand alternating swings, this is more of a technique that you will want to develop as you get comfortable with single hand swings, but it does not really have a place as a stand alone part of either program.  what the single hand alternating drill will do for you is give you a smooth transition  if you are doing a snatch test or high rep swing session.  the alternating technique will allow you the freedom of continuing your reps without setting the bell down BUT there is a time and place - if you are focusing on high rep swings or snatches you need to make sure that your form is completely dialed in - so you have no wearing down and pain of the lower back, which suggests youre dropping the bell too low and squatting through your swings and not using your lats properly, there should be no upper back pain, no shoulder pain - essentially the limiting factors for high rep swings should only come down to your breathing - alternating single hand swings will help you get in a high volume of swings, without setting the bell down, once your form is pure, but is only a transition tool, not a training tool - so doing 100 swings alternating every rep is more of a circus trick than a training session - unless you are training for juggling bells, then work it into your practice after ETK PM or S&S.  if you stick with S&S (or ETK PM) thru the Simple and towards and into the Sinister - and it IS a program you can stick with honestly for the rest of your life - if you stick with this program and continue to up your weight you will be absolutely thrilled with the results.  thrilled!!! enjoy!
 
(I was typed this up before I saw Marchese's reply. I apologize if I cover much of the same ground.)

 

Hi, Abdul! I’ve run both programs before at different times and recently returned to S&S after having to make some changes to my training. You make a good point about not jumping from program to program too quickly. Most folks on this site will push you toward S&S, but they would all agree that if you’re happy with the results you’re getting from ETK’s PM, there’s no reason to stop doing it. S&S is the updated PM, and there are definitely improvements, but that doesn’t mean the ETK PM doesn’t get results (see this thread for more explanation: http://www.strongfirst.com/topic/pm-vs-ss/). But since you said you want to switch to S&S, here’s my take:

 

1. What would you say a reasonable progression standard for both swings and TGUs (in terms of weight or volume or sets or reps) that I should I aim to attain? It wasn’t clear to me from ETK book. What would be that progression standard that prepares me to switch to S&S?

Other than general medical clearance, which any SFG would recommend as a first step, there is no standard for beginning S&S because the program is so easily scaled to different strength levels. But if there were such a standard, you’re certainly there already. You’re doing two-handed swings with a 32kg bell and plenty of get-ups (actually more than Pavel prescribes in the ETK PM as written) with the same bell. You’re ready for S&S.

 

As for giving the ETK PM its due, you’ve done that as well. Two months on the PM is a good amount of time. One popular program (although generally not recommended on this site) suggests a month of the PM before progressing to the Rite of Passage. But again, this doesn’t really apply to your situation because you’re switching to a program that is appropriate for any level. There are no prerequisites for S&S. You’ve given the ETK PM its due, and you’re ready.

 

2. When do I try to switch to one-handed swings?

I will refer you to Steve Freides, Senior SFG, on this one: http://www.strongfirst.com/simple-sinister-progressing-from-two-to-one-handed-swings/

 

3. When do I try to do alternate one-handed swings?

This question is addressed in the article by Steve Freides above. He lets you know when to switch and how often. One point to add here is that alternate or hand-to-hand swings are actually easier for many people than a straight set of one-handed swings. Grip can be a limiting factor in one-arm swings. Hand-to-hand swings let the non-swinging arm’s grip muscles rest between each rep. Longer sets of one-arm swings without switches also help you hone your technique. As the article says, “A single rep each side isn’t going to be enough to really let you get a feel for how you’re doing with your one-arm swing on that side – but two will suffice.”

 

To sum up, if you want to jump into S&S, go for it. In my experience, it has some advantages over the ETK PM in terms of building strength and even changing body composition. You have given the ETK PM its due. Don’t worry about that. There is no reason not to transition to S&S if it aligns more closely with your goals. Based on the numbers you list above, the Simple goal should be attainable for you in the near future. Having those numbers in mind should be helpful. Admittedly, the ETK PM leaves a lot of questions unanswered, but you won’t have that problem with S&S. Make sure your form is dialed in. Seek help from an SFG on this forum or in person if possible. And good luck to you!
 
Marches: Thank you very much for your extremely detailed answers. Clarified all my questions, not just the ETK PM vs S&S question. I liked your descriptions and differences of ETK PM, S&S, one handled, alternate handed swings etc. Very clear to me.

Patrick: Thank you for taking time to break it down for me. There was mistake in my original post I would like to clarify. I am using 16 kg/35lb, not 32kg (haha in my original post it was a wrong number) and TGUs. That is where I am currently at in terms of weight. Now that I understand this better, I agree with you in that I am ready for S&S.

What I will do is increase my weight to 24kg and reduce the rep to 10 for swings. Continue to use 16kg for TGUs. And therein likes my so-called transition to S&S. I have a 24kg already. I have been doing TGU on the same day too. I am placing an order for this book today and a 32kg bell which I think I will soon need it.

As an update, my progress so far has been very good. My shoulder niggles are considerably reduced and joint points are 100% gone. I lost some belly fat (I am dieting too and that should have helped) and increased some muscle definitions. I am looking forward greatly towards the future. I am super excited. . Cheers all.
 
Correction: For swings. I will use 20kg as a transition, and will start using 24kg when I fully switch to S&S. 16kg to 24kg seems a big jump. 20kg is the weight I have. I am yet to order 24kg and 32kg.
 
The jumps are large for a reason.  You must own the weight you are currently working with before moving up in weight.
 
Travis, A 10x10 swing in good form will quality as 'mastering' it? I have been doing 16kg. I can do this using 16kg. Should I not try 20kg before I attempt 24kg? Should I attempt 24kg anyway? I have the 20kg. I am yet to order 24kg. Thanks a lot.
 
If you have the 20kg, I'd say for go for it but I wouldn't buy a 20kg over a 24kg if I was buying a kettlebell.

In S&S, it describes "owning" the bell as being able to complete the requirements on any day anytime with a hangover or something like that....

 

 
 
Ah, I see where I misread your original post (32 lbs, not 32 kgs). Sorry about that. In any case, looks like you're all set. You'll get to the 32 kg soon enough. Keep us posted!
 
I found the warm-up in S+S an improvement over ETK. Goblet squats really loosen my knees up.

I know people say to jump from 16-24 and not get the intermediate sizes. They may have a good point. I found 16-24 a really tough jump but going through it I made rapid progress.

I have since gone to 28kg (at new year) and that was a much more gradual jump but I do feel like I have stalled a bit over the last couple of months (definitely nowhere near 'owning it'), that's my own fault though as I have started mixing some presses and assisted pull-ups into the warm-up and generally messing with the program.

In summary - Pavel knows what he is doing and wrote the progressions that way for a reason - it probably does not pay to overthink it!

 

 
 
Karl, I like the new warm up too. I am happy to stop doing the pump stretch and wall squats.

I ordered 24kg now. After 24kg, what do we use 28kg or 32kg?
 
You can use whatever bell you want.... standard size would be to go to the 32kg but if you can't make the jump you can use the 28kg.
 
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