Nutrition Ever managed
- Thread starter Butch
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Have read about TKD/CKD diets doing this.
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Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
Not personally, so take my answer with a grain of salt.
It does seem to happen regularly in untrained and minimally trained individuals. It seems to happen more often in an environment of low insulin and high caloric intake, which is common in low carb/high fat diets, as well at ketogenic diets (as @Steve Freides pointed out). The low insulin levels make it hard for the body to store fat, while a high caloric intake allows muscle growth. That's the simplified version, but yes, it does seem to happen.
It does seem to happen regularly in untrained and minimally trained individuals. It seems to happen more often in an environment of low insulin and high caloric intake, which is common in low carb/high fat diets, as well at ketogenic diets (as @Steve Freides pointed out). The low insulin levels make it hard for the body to store fat, while a high caloric intake allows muscle growth. That's the simplified version, but yes, it does seem to happen.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
Studies have shown that you can build muscle while in calorie deficit. We also have the evidence of our own eyes, when fat dudes start weight training they slim down and muscle up. Of course they are untrained which seems to help. The issue is not so much 'what can happen?' but 'what is optimal for your goal?' If your goal is building muscle then you are better off increasing calories by adding protein. If your goal is losing fat you are better off reducing calories by cutting carbs and/or fat. If you want to pursue both then accept the result will be sub-optimal and add protein while cutting calories overall by reducing carbs and/or fat
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I managed it by using a high protein/low fat diet. I still ate a fair amount of fat mostly with my breakfast, but as a percentage of total macros it was pretty low. I did not keep detailed records of my diet at the time, but it was roughly 35% protein, 50% carbs, 15% fat.
Workouts were on the long side with decent rest periods, which ate up a lot of carbs. It can be done but I found I had to train mighty intense and sleep more.
I've read this before but I haven't tried it:
How to Build Muscle and Lose Fat…at the Same Time
Here's for you macros:
A Simple and Accurate Macronutrient Calculator (and How to Use It)
How to Build Muscle and Lose Fat…at the Same Time
Here's for you macros:
A Simple and Accurate Macronutrient Calculator (and How to Use It)
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Increasing Muscle Mass While Decreasing Body Fat
This predominately works for untrained/minimally trained individuals and especially obese individuals with a well written exercise/followed exercise program, providing they are in a calorie deficit.
That means any diet in which there is a calorie deficit will increase muscle mass and decrease body fat levels for these individuals.
The leaner and more advanced an individual is, the harder it is to gain muscle mass while losing body fat at the same time.
Some diets are definitely more effective than others. Which bring us to...
Calories Count
Calories are the "Prime Root" of weight gain or weight loss.
That means any diet that increases calories produces weight gain and any diet that decrease calories produces weight loss.
Insulin: The Anabolic Hormone
High carbohydrates diets increase insulin production. Insulin is "Anabolic". However, it is what is termed...
"Globally Anabolic"
That means the it not only increase muscle mass but fat mass, as well. Metaphorically speaking, insulin is like nuclear power. Under the right condition, it is effective. Under the wrong condition it, your fat cells blow up.
As Nutritionist, Jay Robb put it...
"Insulin is a Fat Maker. Glucagon is a Fat Taker"
Chronic elevated insulin levels mean an increase in body fat and contribute to other health issues.
Low insulin levels allow for body fat to be burned for energy due to an increase in the "Fat Burning Hormones: Glucagon, Nor-epinephrine, Epinephrine, Growth Hormone, Dopamine and Cortisol.
A side note on Cortisol: Acute (short term) increase when training or during fasting allows it to utilize burn body fat for energy. Chronic (long term) levels of Cortisol are catabolic (muscle burning) creating health issues.
The Cortisol Take Home Message
Acute Cortisol increase is good.
Chronic Cortisol level is bad.
Some (Not All) Factors for Low and High Carbohydrate Diets
1) Insulin Sensitive: These individual for the most part do well on a Moderate to High Carbohydrate diet. Usually, younger individuals are Insulin Sensitive.
2) Insulin Resistant: These individual gain weight/fat by just looking at a piece of bread. Moderate to High Carbohydrate Diets weight gain is primarily fat mass with a little increase in muscle mass.
Older individuals tend to be more Insulin Resistant, due in part to the aging process.
3) Sports Energy Systems
a) Phosphagen Energy System: This system is not dependent on carbohydrates. That means glucose is not need when with Sports or Training Method that employ the Phosphagen Energy System, glucose/carbohydrates are not necessary.
b) Glycoltic Energy System: Moderate to high carbohydrate appears to be necessary for Oxidative Energy System Sports. Athletes and Training Method that utilize the Oxidative Energy System are not dependent on glucose, low carbohydrate diet work for this group.
c) Oxidative Energy System: This system is not dependent on carbohydrates. That means glucose is not need when with Sports or Training Method that employ the Phosphagen Energy System.
Low Insulin Levels, High Calorie Intake
Very well stated, lower insulin levels makes it easier to burn fat as well as harder to store fat.
Increasing calories, primarily from fats, ensure weight gain, most likely in muscle mass.
Personal Experience
After losing 23 lbs by combining the Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting. I decided to gain some of the weight back with the Ketogenic Diet and limited Intermittent Fasting.
By dramatically increasing my fat calorie intake and minimally increasing protein (maintaining 25% or less of calorie intake), I gain back 17 lb.
Some of the weight gain was body fat; calories count.
The Issues of the Ketogenic and High Carbohydrate Diets
1) Ketogenic Diets make you effective at using body fat for energy. However, you become less efficient at accessing glycogen.
2) High Carbohydrates make you glucose dependent; less effective at accessing body at for energy.
3) Diets that restrict one marco group (Low Fat or Low Carbohydrate) ensure failure with the majority of the population.
Intermittent Fasting
Employing this method allows "Metabolic Flexibility"; your body is able to access glucose (carbohydrates) or ketones (body fat).
"Metabolic Flexibility" amount to having a Hybrid Car. It utiized electricity or gas, switching between the two dependent on the task.
Back To Gaining Muscle and Losing Body Fat
This is best accomplished by cycling calories up and down.
1) Bodybuilders "Bulk" and "Cut" phase have demonstrate how effective this is.
2) Layne Norton's "Reverse Dieting" is build on the Traditional Bodybuilding Protocol, above. Norton provide a definitive method to ensure muscle gain and fat loss.
3) Dr John Berardi's (PhD Nutrition) "Bigger-Smaller-Bigger" Intermittent Fasting for increasing muscle mass and decreasing fat mass is built on cycling calories, as is the Traditional Bodybuilding Method and Norton's Reverse Diet Method.
The Take Home Message
The foundation of Periodization Training, cycling training, works for gaining weight or losing weight.
Periodization Dieting via cycling calories up and down up is an effective method of increasing muscle mass and decreasing body fat.
The foundation of Periodization Dieting Foundation for gaining or losing weight (increasing muscle mass and decreasing body fat) is built on calorie. The Diet you chose is secondary.
Kenny Croxdale
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
There seems to be consensus that building muscle while losing fat is easiest in untrained individuals.
This article references some small yet interesting studies on the situation with elite athletes:
Three Effective Fat Loss Strategies For Athletes | Poliquin Article
summarised as:
* ensure the calorie deficit is modest
* go low carb while ensuring protein intake remains adequate
This article references some small yet interesting studies on the situation with elite athletes:
Three Effective Fat Loss Strategies For Athletes | Poliquin Article
summarised as:
* ensure the calorie deficit is modest
* go low carb while ensuring protein intake remains adequate
wespom9
Level 6 Valued Member
CAVEAT: I used a DEXA scan for the following, but as always it is subject to reliabilty issues. I am extremely careful to re-create the same scenario each time I do a scan.
Doing S&S 4-5 days a week, I experienced a small amount of body fat % (1.3) while gaining 0.8 lbs muscle mass, during a 7 week window. In this time frame I did a mix of either intermittent fasting (no breakfast), or a low carb breakfast (2 eggs with a handful of spinach). No other focus on food other than minimal sugar, minimal processed foods. Note that I also did brazilian jiu-jitsu 2-3 (usually 2) times a week during this.
Very low sample size, very minor change. Just telling my story!
EDIT: I should note that this went from 10.2% to8.9%, and I was fairly close to simple at the time. So not exactly untrained.
Doing S&S 4-5 days a week, I experienced a small amount of body fat % (1.3) while gaining 0.8 lbs muscle mass, during a 7 week window. In this time frame I did a mix of either intermittent fasting (no breakfast), or a low carb breakfast (2 eggs with a handful of spinach). No other focus on food other than minimal sugar, minimal processed foods. Note that I also did brazilian jiu-jitsu 2-3 (usually 2) times a week during this.
Very low sample size, very minor change. Just telling my story!
EDIT: I should note that this went from 10.2% to8.9%, and I was fairly close to simple at the time. So not exactly untrained.
Marc
Level 6 Valued Member
Actually I find these results to be pretty nice!
You lost fat and gained muscle! What more can you ask for?
Best of all the DXA makes the reaults reliable.
wespom9
Level 6 Valued Member
Haha thanks! I suppose I wasn't specifically looking for hypertrophy. My lean muscle tissue has gone back and forth from 76-79 lbs according to the DEXA, with most results around 78. I don't think I would place too much value in the gain just due to that reason. Too much variables to control to safely say it was an improvement IMO.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The reliability of all method of calculating body fat percentages have reliability issue.
Even...
DEXA/James Kreiger, MS
The Pitfalls of Body Fat “Measurement”, Part 6: Dual-Energy X-Ray Absorptiometry (DEXA)
Like all other body fat estimation techniques, DEXA has numerous sources of error.
DEXA does pretty well, with errors of 1-2%. However, like with all other body fat testing techniques, individual error rates can be much higher. The error rates vary by what study you look at and which DEXA machine was used; error rates range from 4% in one study to up to 8-10% in another study. Also, the accuracy of DEXA can be affected by sex, size, fatness, and disease state of subjects.
Individual error rates tend to hover around 5%...
...its error rates are no better than hydrostatic weighing, and in some cases is worse.
Kenny Croxdale
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