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Old Forum HS swings vs. squat jumps

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Physical Culture

Physical Culture

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GS lifters often use squat jumps to help with producing drive and power for the jerk.  The lifter puts a barbell on his back (many texts recommend 185-225 lbs. for lifters working with 2x24k kettlebells), and jumps.  He may rise on his toes, or his feet may leave the ground.  As he comes down he absorbs the shock and drops into a quarter squat in one motion, then drives into another jump.  These are done in rapid succession with no pauses at all between reps.

Is there any way to measure the relationship between a squat jump and a kettlebell swing in terms of force produced?  For example, suppose in a squat jump, a 210 pound barbell travels  18 inches.  Suppose a 70 pound kettlebell travels 4.5 feet from the top of a swing to the bottom.  The kettlebell weighs one third of the barbell, but travels three times further.  Do they produce roughly similar force?
 
Steve,

I'd bet Brandon Hetzler could answer that.  He was responsible for a lot of the force plate studies using the swing.   Great question!!

 
 
He does on occasion.  He's kinda like Batman and shows up when needed.  I wouldn't be surprised if he catches this post soon.

 
 
I got the bat signal and have done some math.

Steve - based on your example of the squat jump at 210lbs moving 18" and a 70lb swing moving 54" here is my response.  More force will be associated with a squat jump, as long as the speed of the movement is kept high.  The load is typically too high for the distance of the swing to counteract.  That being said, if we look at work performed (force x distance) the KB actually wins by 20 Joules (406J for the SQ jump to 426J for the SWI).  However, I'm 6'6" and with my swing the bell travels 48", which is less than the 54" you propose.  That is a long way to go. Using my swing, that number drops to 379J per swing, which is less than a Jump Squat.

All of that being said, I will raise this question - Is the jump squat really the best choice of exercise for power production?  I say no.  People can't do barbell back squats well (just watch what is posted on the youtube and facebook), so adding the velocity of a jump will only magnify their horrific technique.

Then again, your question was in reference to GS sport and improving the Jerk.  The glaring problem I see is that the forces in the swing are more horizontal and the forces in the jerk are very vertical.  With the goal of the jerk being vertical displacement, a horizontal drill will have little carryover.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24845206

 

 

Just my opinion.

 
 
Thanks, Brandon.  It's a shame Ben Affleck is playing you in the new movie.

Thanks for running the numbers. Your second question is a good one.  I've never been a fan of squat jumps.  They train vertical force production, but in a very different groove than the jerk.  They've never felt right to me.  I'm at a point where I need help in this area to handle the 24k's for more reps.  When I do heavy swings (40k and up), I feel the stimulation in my legs the way I do when I do heavy jerks.  I think that heavy swings a la Simple and Sinister are a better assistance lift for long cycle than squat jumps.  They both train power and explosiveness in a different way than the jerk, but both carry over. Swings are a more natural movement, and also train the grip, traps, and shoulder in a way that helps the clean.  I just wondered how they compared in terms of physics.
 
Hey Steve,

A squat jump with 225? How strong should the normal squat be in order to be able to do that safely?

In olympic weightlifting I've seen only some athletes using jump squats and those were world class who used not that much weight given their strength levels.

There used to be a quater squat in the exercise collection for German lifters specifically for improving the jerk. However, nobody does them nowadays. Doing squats and front squats is much more beneficial.

Why don't you bring up your squats a bit. That should give you plenty of power to move the kettlebells.

 
 
PS: I agree with Brandon.  HS swings use a powerful hinge movement.  A jerk is basically a quarter squat with no hinging.
 
Thanks, Leon.  My best back squat with wraps and belt, about two years ago during a powerlifting cycle, was 315.  I could not come close to that now.  I've done jumping squats onto my toes with 225 in sets of 10.  It's unpleasant, but I felt like my form was safe.

I've been working on bringing my squat back up.  Lots of the Russian GS greats do heavy squats for high reps.  I just saw a video of Valentin Berbenychuk squatting 420 for 5 reps, and there are several videos floating around of guys doing 100k (220 lb.) for up to 100 reps.

The GS jerk is not quite a quarter squat with no hinging.  It starts from the rack position, where the lifter is holding the bells with the elbows as close to the hips as possible, rocking back from the hips.  The hips are already extended, and the jerk is powered by a strong extension of the knees, ankles, and thoracic spine.  In order to bring hip extension into the lift, the lifter would first have to pull the hips back, disengaging the hips from the elbows (and thus the bells), and losing the drive.  Lifters use the jump squat to train this repeated, explosive extension of the knees and ankles, then carry it over to the jerk.

There does not seem to be an assistance exercise that closely mimics the movement of the GS jerk, except for chest bumps- a jerk with no lockout, simply driving the bells off the body and letting them drop back down.
 
To call the jerk movement a quarter squat was imprecise. Of course one tries to move the barbell or kb down in a vetical line. Thus, the movement differs somewhat from squat, but it is probably worth just building up the front squat a bit and see if there is a positive carry over.

but I was wondering given those quite impressive strength numbers are there two different schools of thoughts in GS? I am asking because I read elsewhere (Rudnev among others) that strength is not that crucial for the girevik. There are also these examples of lifters who had barely any pressing strength yet could jerk record numbers numbers. Now I am well aware that pressing strength and jerk numbers (in weightlifting) don't show a high correlation.  However, it seems there are athletes with a endurance background and athletes with more of a strength background.  Can you elaborate on the matter?
 
Rudnev has an article written with Lopatin, another GS champion, asserting that conventional strength training (squats, presses, deadlifts) does not significantly benefit GS numbers.  Specifically, he observes that the main limiting factor is pace- going faster than a lifter is ready for.

That said, a couple of observations merit noting.  First, Rudnev is very strong.  He is not a powerlifter, but is a gymnast.  He does pistol squats for something like 50 reps per leg, and 25 pullups in a set.  He does handstand pushups for reps.  He has great endurance and flexibility, but also a great deal of bodyweight strength.  Rudnev is a great coach, and has a lot of MS athletes under his belt.

There are other coaches who recommend more strength work.  Igor Morozov is a powerlifter, and Ivan Denisov holds a very high rank in the deadlift. Valentyn Berbenychuk posted a video of himself competing in a bench press for reps contest with, I think, 100k (220 lb.).  Some GS guys are incredibly strong.

As with most sports, there are differing approaches to GS.  Rudnev coaches at the Far East Military Academy, and most of his students are cadets- young military recruits who do a lot of running and bodyweight stuff as part of training.

The bottom line, I think, is that without a high level of endurance, more strength will not lead to more reps.  If a lifter is strong enough to lift a given weight, then it becomes a matter of recovery during the set, which relates, to conditioning, technique, flexibility, etc. (the things Rudnev thinks are more important than strength).

On the other hand, if a lifter has developed these qualities, then getting stronger is a great asset.   Denisov was running marathons before he was a champion deadlifter.

 
 
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