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Old Forum Is you arm vertical at bottom of one hand swing?

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Jeff

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I have read that a one handed swing should look like a two handed swing, but when you are doing a two handed swing your shoulders and kettlebell can form a tripod.  The arms will form a v with neither arm vertical at the bottom of the two handed swing.  As I watch videos of people doing one handed swings there seems to be a tendency for the arm holding the kettlebell to want to be vertical at the bottom of the swing, which makes sense.  This causes the shoulder on the same side as the kettlebell to dip lower than the non-kettlebell shoulder.  It is impossible to keep the shoulders level with one another while the kettlebell arm becomes more vertical at the bottom of the swing.  Are you supposed to try to keep both shoulders square and at the same elevation, and fight the tendency to allow the kettlebell arm to become vertical?  I know you are supposed to fight the urge to allow the body to rotate, but is that at both the top and bottom of the swing or just the top?
 
Hi Jeffrey!

You're on the right track.

I believe it's even more important to fight the torque on the bottom, since the weight is greater there due to the speed of the kettlebell.

Try guiding the bell back with your lat on the working side - this will make the falling canonball travel towards your center line without you having to twist to save your knee.

Best regards, Henke in Sweden
 
Take these as an example:

http://youtu.be/wHK_OOFFc8E

http://youtu.be/NXff80mLJKA

http://youtu.be/ktQO1vrLfsE

http://youtu.be/zzhip0OhpBo

 

You you have two beginners and two advanced kettlebellers.  In each example the kettlebell shoulder is lower than the free hand shoulder at the bottom of the swing, the kettlebell arm is closer to vertical than would be the case for a two handed swing, and there is a slight twist of the upper body at the bottom.

What example can you show where both shoulders are at the same level at the bottom of a one arm swing and there is no rotation at the bottom?

 

 
 
I actually meant to copy the links only.  I didn't know the actual videos would appear in the thread.
 
i dont believe that the 1H swing should look like the 2H swing.  in ETK there are clear photos of Pavel performing a single arm swing, the non kettlebell arm is up and back to begin the movement.  the shoulder of the kettlebell arm is lower than than the shoulder of the open arm.  i believe there is a benefit to this "twist" and i think the only way you would be able to perform the movement with your shoulders in the same position, as they are with a 2H swing, is to place the open hand alongside the bell just not grabbing it, but then i believe you are losing some of the benefit of the single arm swing which allows for a deeper hike back and a greater recruitment of the muscles throughout the torso to stabilize the bell and get it back to center at the top of the swing.
 
Jeffrey,

IMO, "your one-handed swing should look like your two-handed swing," is more a coaching cue than a literal description. "Shins vertical" and "weight on heels" are two other examples of cues that I think many people take too literally.

You DO want to TRY to keep your shoulders square and resist the tendency to twist, but if you can really do it completely strictly, you probably need to use a heavier bell.

In close to 15 years of doing kettlebell swings, I have honestly never given a single thought to how vertical my working arm is.
 
Steve,

I have been thinking about the coaching cue that a single arm swing should look two a two arm swing, but I don't see any examples of it.  I even asked on the forum once (might have been on the old forum) about slight twisting at the bottom and was specifically told it was poor form.  I have been thinking about why the tendency to do this exists, and the only thing I can think of is that a pendulum always wants to swing vertically.  The vertical arm really isn't the point of the thread.  Proper one arm swing form is.  My main focus is to try to distribute weight on my heels evenly and to keep my chest up.  Everything else seems to just happen, but I don't want to oversimplify with the misunderstanding that I think that will solve all kettlebell problems for everyone.
 
I believe Steve is onto something important here.

For example:

Noone has probably ever seen a vertical shin when observing somebody doing pistols. It is nevertheless an important cue according to "The Naked Worrior". But if the text would have said "vertical-ish", a lot of people might have take the instruction less seriously.

I believe that is why the cues often demand more than what is possible.
 
Henric, this the magic of certain cues. By attempting the impossible, you create full body tension that enhances both safety _and_ performance. It’s simple, elegant, and effective.

In the case you mention, the one-arm swing, as you resist the tendency of the bearing side to twist your body, you are effectively loading the spring that will both keep you tight and make you more explosive on the upswing to follow.

Same with the vertical shin cue for pistols – you will engage the hips and hamstrings in ways you might not think you need to otherwise, and you will be both safer and stronger in the bottom position.

BTW, my favorite pistol cue is similar – it’s “lengthen your thigh” as you lower. It’s along the lines of imagining you are pressing both up and down from your elbow in a military press – it makes all kinds of good things happen. I don’t know from whom I learned this one or if I thought of it myself but it works very well for me.

-S-
 
I have been pondering a problem similar to this recently. During 1H swings, I notice that my kettlebell loaded arm/shoulder tries to drop when at the bottom of the swing. Recently I had discomfort in my right shoulder (posterior deltoid and deeper) following a 1H swings and TGU session; some deep reflecting on my form that day revealed some insight  in regards to this problem.

1 - I realized that I was allowing my torso and shoulder to rotate (twist) excessively toward the midline at/near the bottom of right handed swings.

2 - I realized that I was also allowing the head of my humerus to slide slightly anteriorly at/near the bottom and at the apex of the swing.

3 - I realized that the discomfort in my shoulder was the result of this excessive rotational movement and the resulting laxity of the shoulder.

4 - I realized I was not generating the proper tension in my right lat during all phases of the swing.

Pavel repeatedly stresses the importance of lat tension during the swing. Through this experience I can now personally attest to the validity and importance of this concept. I lightened the load and focused for three weeks on generating the proper lat tension on my right side. This focused effort also led me to some insights on the torso rotation at the bottom of the swing. A slight (and I mean very slight) twist is unavoidable under larger loads; however, any excessive twist poses a risk of the shoulder drifting forward and possibly injuring the posterior deltoid and associated musculature. High lat tension is the best policy because it is a protective mechanism. It reduces the degree of torso rotation and protects the relatively weaker musculature of the shoulder girdle.

By focusing on right lat tension, I was able to improve the degree of left lat tension as well. I have now eased back into heavier swings and my shoulder discomfort has not returned.
 
Out of the four videos above, which are rotating their torso too much, and what is the criteria?
 
It seems this discussion illustrates the difference between cues and standards.  It is useful to know the cues, but it is also useful to know what the actual, objective standards for correct performance of the movement. Cues are useful markers on which to focus for performing the movement, but standards are necessary to determine whether one has succeeded in performing the movement correctly.

There is a loose parallel, I think, between this and the discussion regarding S&S swing standards for progression and for meeting the Simple and/or Sinister level, with respect to level of necessary exertion.
 
During my SFG weekend, Andrea U-Shi Chang gave a great tip during the snatch training which was to have your non working shoulder race your working shoulder to the end of the backswing. I think just trying to make that happen made a significant difference in my performance. It provided so much more power and though I don't think about it during the swing, I'd imagine it would still be a powerful cue.
 
Joe,

What an interesting tip.  I just finished my swing practice but I can't wait to give that a try tomorrow.
 
Jeffrey, et. al.

in the last video Mr. Ciampa is swinging a beast, unfair to use that one to evaluate technique details.

Regardless of how it looks there is a huge difference in keeping the shoulder packed and having the experience described in great detail by Daniel. Your shoulders will not remain in perfect alignment, however you can start off there, and maintain a solid shoulder engatement throughout.

do the classic SFG packing drill while standing. Have someone lightly pull your "working" shoulder out away from the body, feel thr disconnect that Daniel described. Now start over only this time resist, feel your stabilizers around your scapula maintain a solid packed position , the the head of the humerus retracting down and back into your trunk. Will it be like that during 1A swings? heck no, you have to fight the weight. The internal sensation SHOULD however be occurring throughout.

Joe's cue and subsequent change in non-working shoulder is awesome too. There is a difference, start light feel the shoulder stabilize down and back, the anti-shrug away from the ear. With a light enough weight it'll stay packed and probably feel different than when the bell is too heavy.
 
Zach, in my opinion it is a fair comparison on the grounds that a person shouldn't use a heavier kettlebell than what they can use with proper form.  I'm am NOT saying that the form Al uses isn't proper.  I am showing examples of four people doing what in my mind is a contradiction to what we are being told to do.  My question here is whether or not I properly understood what I thought I was hearing.
 
The SF Level 1 technique standards video that has been out on Youtube since the early days of SF does not seem to include a one-hand swing (it has two hand swings and doubles), but, for comparison's sake,  it does demonstrate technique standards (at least, presumably, as they were at the time), for the snatch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5qB0nILpko#t=11m52s

 
 
Mark's kettlebell shoulder definiitely goes lower than his free shoulder while his torso rotates.  I guess that answers my question, but it sure looks different than what I thought I was reading about keeping the shoulders square, more or less.
 
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