Old Forum Kennith Jays article on swings

[Deleted member 316]

I seen a new article from the Kettlebell Institute saying the hip snap in the swing isn't good, I was wondering what Pavel's or the Party's thoughts were on this? I don't have the link anymore, my computer lost it or something.

 

[Steve Freides]

We aren't saying that article is wrong, but we know we are right in how we teach the swing.

-S-

 

[jgruginski]

Kenneth's position seems to be that the hip snap can result in SI joint problems, too much tension can disrupt the natural activation of various stabilizers and core muscles, and that overall, the hip hinge focused swing, versus more of a vertical jumping style of swing, is not as effective for overall athletic performance. That's based off of what I found here: http://www.kettlebellinstitute.net/warehouse/downloads/big10ToAvoid.pdf

He also has an "experiment" he conducted that he references in the above and it is here (URL in above PDF is now defunct:http://kettlebellinstitute.net/warehouse/downloads/manual_support_material/a_new_approach.pdf

Now, I haven't spent as much time immersed in the RKC/SF style of swing as Kenneth has/had, but I don't think the "rules" are as rigid as he makes them out to be. Any trainer worth their salt takes what works and modifies what doesn't, so if they get the feedback that their client is hurt, then the trainer should change the approach.

Not to make any assumptions one way or another, but Pavel's not stupid. And I think he doesn't assume that the people that read his work are either. So while keeping the shin vertical is a good example of something that could be adhered to in theory, and is a great guide to explore the proper way to perform a movement, the laws of physics dictate otherwise during execution.

None of the above should be taken to mean that I don't respect Kenneth's point of view or his achievements. And I would go on record saying that anyone who is continuing to tell their clients to snap their hips so forcefully and without purpose to cause issues (even while getting feedback that severe pain is being caused), yet doesn't change their tactics should rethink this profession. There are enough poorly trained "certified" trainers out there who are inflicting damage on countless thousands of people across the world. I wouldn't want to be part of an organization that followed that trend and I don't believe SF does. What I read of Kenneth's description of the "hip hinge swing" portrays only one narrowly focused point of view, but I never saw the same in Pavel's work.

The reality is probably more like Dan John tells us when he hears the athletes don't squat: " I don't squat because they hurt my knees." Wrong. The way you squat hurts your knees. The same could be said for the swing or snatch or (insert any exercise here). So use your brain when training yourself or others and listen to the body when pain is present. Doesn't matter if it's in their head or not, something should change.

Sorry for the rant. I was irked by reading Kenneth's article.

 

[Sasa Rajnovic]

Seem's to me that Kenneth is very critical to the way he used to train and teach others how to teach other people   True, people do evolve in their profession, but to realize in such short time that one was completly wrong...? ...I mean, what makes you so sure you're right today?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. There is no balck or white, right or wrong... To some point he is right. One can be overexplosive in swing. But your swing can be too soft also. That does not mean that the swing should not be crisp or soft...It's like "pangainoon" (half hard - half soft style of karate), a perfect combination of both. Don't be too stiff, but don't be like jello too It's up to you to figure it out and to find what fits you best.

Sasa

 

[jgruginski]

Sasa,

I think what bugged me is the implication that those studying the hard style swing don't have enough sense to do anything but the "rigid" form. There's a difference between actively bending the knees and having the knees bend as a compliment to the hip hinge. All that said, if  one were to focus on the printed word only, you might miss the "allowance" of knee bend or the upward rotation of the scapula during a press. And while Pavel has quite a fan base, I don't think he's ever asked anyone to abandon common sense. Again, I have much respect for Kenneth's work and I see the benefit in what he's saying. I like that there's another point of view and that it also seems to work. I appreciate the scientific method he tried to apply as well as it distinguishes him as someone who can back up his convictions. He is someone who should be listened to and I agree with a lot of what he's said in his article. I guess I just didn't take to the disparaging tone.

 

[B.Hetzler]

Here is my take on KJ's teaching of the swing and who is right vs. who is wrong.

1.  When learning a complecated movement (in this case the swing) very few people have the ability, skill, and body control to discern whether they are hip hinging or "jumping".  That, and you can't think thru a dynamic movement.  If you try to, whatever style of swing you chose will be wrong.  Motor learning takes repitition and refinement.  Someone that has done hundreds of thousands of swings will have this ability, but unless you have many years of swinging under your belt it is above your level of control.

2.   KJ is marketing a different style of training and can't say his old way is the better than his new way-that is just bad marketing.  It is a manner of semantics-the "hip snap" que is just that - a que to get a disired outcome.  It alone isn't the desired outcome.  Hip extension happens in every version of the swing that is out there (some more than others).  Will too much or too violent of a hip extension be bad for the SI joint?  Yes.  But, sprinting is way worse for the SI due to the speed, velocity, forces and the asymmetrical hip position.  No one is saying sprinting is bad though.  It is in the application of the tool, not the tool itself.  Too little tension will also destabilize the SI region.......

3.  Thinking about tensing any specific area while trying to move is also counter-productive in any training style.  Don't yell at me yet-I'm not saying Pavel is wrong in regards to tension.  But, high tension is taught initially when learning moves like the swing, deadlift, squat, and press but that tension isn't the goal or the final destination.  The high tension is gradually stripped away until appropriate tension is acheived - this is where true strengthening and good movement take place, when a balance of tension and relaxation are acheived. Otherwise too much tension or too little tension ruin whatever the movement is.

Kenneth makes a lot of great points regarding learning movements.  Pavel makes alot of great points regarding learning movement.  Anthony DiLugio makes alot of great points regarding learning movements.  Scott Sonnen makes alot of great points regarding learning movements.  It all comes down to the individual that is applying what is taught.  We can't control other entities, individuals or organizations-everyone wants to have their own "thing".  StrongFirst does a great job in making sure our methods of teaching are the best they can be, and our difference lies in  our ability to layer each skill into other skills we teach.  I've researched, and played around with many other organizations - but StrongFirst is the best "System" of teaching strength/movement out there.  Others have very solid methods, but are lacking the solid System we have.

 

[Dan John]

Since my name was mentioned, I would like to talk about an issue that arises from "all of this." First, let me quote something I wrote for an upcoming blog:

"Before I even begin writing, I spoke with KJ about this on Facebook and I think we both have great respect for each other, but you can see the issue that I am talking about.  Kenneth wrote:

 

"We have all heard some variation of what is believed to be "primitive movement patterns". Gray Cook has his set, Dan John has his and Paul Chek has his… the list goes on. What all of them have in common is a lack of spiraling and twisting along with kicking, throwing, punching and hand dexterity. " (See: http://www.kettlebellinstitute.net/tip3/)

 

I wrote Kenneth about this and I noted how basically all of my career has been in the field of throwing (Ha! “Field of throwing”) and it is simple a part of what we do at least 10,000 times a year. His follow up is important, too:

 

“If I may ask: why did I never see you teach or talk about this stuff at the events we were at together?” I thought about this a while. I met Kenneth when he was my daughter’s Team Leader at the UCLA cert and I think once more when I did either another cert or something in Minnesota. In neither setting did I have really have the opportunity to really even do the basics of the methods that I use as a teacher or coach. I was teaching out of a manual that I helped add bits and pieces, but it was another “system.”

 

So, you might read my work for years and be absolutely convinced that I don’t teach twisting and rotation work. But, after two days with me at Discus Camp, you will have turned, twisted, rotated and spun so many times you may wonder why I haven’t mentioned the “Hinge” a single time, although that’s all I talk about with an adult population of office workers."

When people would leave the RKC, we often noted that within a year a new DVD would come out and we could see something along these lines:

"I used to teach this, but now I teach THIS!" Frankly, I never saw a difference in any of it. I'm not being a jerk, but I have listened to loooooooooong discussions about whether or not the blank exceeds blankity blank in the blank and I never see any difference in any of this. Fundamental Human Movements will have some variation because we do have some differences, but I always think: "If it looks right, it flies right."

The problem with leaving community is not always obvious. Community exists in two directions, vertical and horizontal. In a school, for example, the vertical community would be teacher and student. The word, Religion, literally means to "link back" and often schools of thought...you see this in the Martial Arts quite clearly...use the vision of the founder to continually link back. If you leave community, as a schism or new prophet arises, it is often the case that you adopt a whole new way of thinking. If you decide to go on your own, your followers will or may follow you.

So, if you start your own path, there is a moment where you have to "put out your list." Your creed, your commandments, your list, your charter or whatever must be done. Somewhere in this process, you have to deal with your former beliefs.

This is why Horizontal community is so important: these are your friends, your confidences and that magical inner circle of people you can interact with on a regular basis. In my tradition, we call the most intimate "Anum Cora." My daughter, Lindsay, has a keen eye to bring me back in when my wild horses of ego inflame. With how I teach the hip hinge, I can talk to literally dozens of people and get information from the eastern traditions, football, yoga, movement and elite sport. In my quest to understand, teach or explain, I walk with many people along the journey.

So, when we break away or apart, there are steps that must be taken. I know for sure that I could start my own cert tomorrow; it has been suggested by some and laughed at by me. I know that the bulk of my material is begged, borrowed and stolen from brighter minds than mine. Moreover, I would also lose the ability to dialogue and discuss the big and little fine points that truly unpack learning.

 

 

 

[jgruginski]

Just awesome, Dan. And I hope I didn't pull you into this unnecessarily; I just appreciate what I've learned from you indirectly and the point of view that you expressed. If a smart person says something, I'm happy to repeat it and give due credit.

I think Brandon hit the nail on the head with his note about marketing. It's bad business to say that the old way is better than your new way. And I don't think Kenneth is a man without character, but I don't see the need to disparage the roots of your own "system" for the sake of promoting your own.  Some of what I learned in physical therapy school has been shown to be wrong, but that doesn't take away the reality of how many people were helped by those false assumptions for years even before I started practice.

Much like politics and religion (here we go!), there are many things that are the same across the different groups, but we choose not to focus on them. We focus on the small percentage that is different and damn the others for their disagreements to the minutiae. Kenneth's challenge to you of why he didn't hear you talk about rotation, 6 planes of movement, etc may have been valid, but to think that one can teach or learn everything within a three day session just isn't realistic. We must promote and demand knowledge of the fundamentals (SF does), offer multiple tracks of learning and advancement (SF does) and still marry that to the learnings of our own experience in our own settings to develop ourselves as individual trainers, coaches, etc. In the end, I'm a firm believer that you can beat your chest and tout your abilities, but you don't have to slam anyone else along the way. We're all just trying to help people in the end.