Kettlebell Kettlebell swing lat activation
- Thread starter Anatoly
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Gravytrain
Level 5 Valued Member
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GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
I would guess too many variables for a single number. How powerful and crisp your extension from hinge at the launch, how hard do you break at the top (vs just modulating the launch so it floats at chest high), how hard do you accelerate the negative or do you just let it drop from gravity....? That study you reference, probably Pavel going as hard as possible in both directions?
Brett Jones
StrongFirst Director of Education
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If my memory serves it was 100% for the two-arm.
Keep Lifting
Level 6 Valued Member
Sorry for the long winded response, I'll begin with I do not know what the percent activation of two handed swings is and I'm not sure if I even connect with the language of "150% activation," I dont really know what that means, but I will relay what I do know.
When I went thru the kettlebell instructor cert, run by Jon Engum, at the Five Points Academy in NYC, some 18 months ago, we did A LOT of two handed swings. At some point late in the afternoon of the second day I felt something that I had never felt before in my kettlebell practice. Complete and full connection with my lats during a two handed swing. I had done tens of thousands of two handed swings in the years leading up to the cert. I went thru the "Dan John 10,000 swings in a month challenge," three times and I had done countless swings beyond those challenges. On top of that, I consider myself a technique freak and I did all I could to drill the proper form and never get sloppy with my practice.
But something special happens at the StrongFirst Kettlebell Instructor Cert - first of all you are surrounded by instructors and some of the fittest people you will ever meet outside of a pro sport setting. At my cert there were two lead instructors and then we broke off into teams and my team had a head instructor and three to four assistant instructors - there were probably 10-12 students on my team - so it is rare not to have a set of eyes on you and some one giving you specific feedback on how to improve. The finest details are given the utmost importance. On top of that you are learning to become an instructor, so you are instructing as well. There are so many layers of learning taking place. You almost cant imagine how effective that is without going through it yourself.
During this experience you will come to a point where you lock-in to a near perfect swing, because if it isnt near perfect an instructor will direct you to park the bell, provide you with feedback and watch as you swing again. Park it, get feedback, perform the exercise. Over and over and over ... and at some point during those sessions you will feel it. Maybe it's the perfect packing of the shoulder, maybe its just the right amount of tension on the hamstrings, maybe its the float where the whole room seems to be halted in suspension, and maybe its that feeling of a full and complete lat activation from insertion point on the upper arm to origin on the pelvis. Once you feel that, you never forget what it feels like. You wont always replicate it, but you know when you do and you'll know how to get there.
I'm not sure where your question is leading - typically these questions are trying to determine whether one exercise is "more effective" than another, and thats a valid line of questioning to explore. But, no matter what the answer is, maybe the two handed has 75% activation, maybe 250%, again the numbers dont connect with me, the key takeaway is that both exercises, 1H and 2h swings are key components of the StrongFirst paradigm.
Is one better than the other? Yes. Which one is better? It depends.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
I've always wondered about that in other contexts as well (abs for example). 100% means all of something. Can't have more than that unless you add from outside. If you manage 50% more than you've ever done before, that's your new 100%
Papa Georgio
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm on the wagon right now, so if you drink another for me, you'd make it 200%. You gotta like that math.
In case you are wondering how it is possible to contract a muscle 150%, the max is isometric. In dynamic contractions, higher values are possible—“plyometrics” are a case in point.
Tsatsouline, Pavel. Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition . StrongFirst, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
Tsatsouline, Pavel. Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition . StrongFirst, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
So in the case in the quote, 100% dynamic contraction is 150% of iso contraction?
That's the way I read it, yes.
Anatoly
Level 4 Valued Member
He achieved 150 percent activation with one handed swings at 32kg. What do you think the percent activation would be for 24kg
No idea. But as with a lot of things with kettlebell training, i think that'how" you do it has a lot to do with muscle activation and training effect, sometimes even more than the weight used.
Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
The bottom line is: Correct swings activate the lats a lot.
Researchers often try to determine which muscle groups play a role in a movement. For this they need a baseline measurement which is done with isos. This way you can compare different exercises. The exact percentage is not as important as the info that it was higher than 100%. Or that an exercise activates more of, say, the obliques than another exercise. This is what Bret Contreras sometimes does - also quoted in S&S:
www.t-nation.com
PS: I think 150% sounds like a lot because I imagine that a 32 kg is not that heavy for Pavel.
Researchers often try to determine which muscle groups play a role in a movement. For this they need a baseline measurement which is done with isos. This way you can compare different exercises. The exact percentage is not as important as the info that it was higher than 100%. Or that an exercise activates more of, say, the obliques than another exercise. This is what Bret Contreras sometimes does - also quoted in S&S:
Inside the Muscles: Best Ab Exercises
After hooking himself up to a bunch of electrodes, the author discovers the best exercises for building a rock-solid midsection. First, I apologize if I left out one of your favorite exercises. Don’t take it personally. I performed these experiments in my garage, and while I have one of the...
www.t-nation.com
PS: I think 150% sounds like a lot because I imagine that a 32 kg is not that heavy for Pavel.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
If I understand the method of measurements at all 100 percent dynamic is not exactly ascertainable. The isometric value is buy contrast going to be much more regular. But the total activation numbers are a complex phenomena which involves difficult to control variables, when attempting to account for methods of loading. Current myelinization, receptivity to signals of activation. Work capacity of motor units, moment arm effects found in the subject, interrelated adjacent musculature supportive compensations to deliver force, etc etc etc. Using values taken from Isometric as a baseline avoids an incredible number of these questions.
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